.45-70 loads?

[Tangle Eye]

The post about the buffalo hunters putting powder on top of the card and under the bullet got me thinking (dangerous business in itself).  I'm using 60 gr of FFFg Swiss with a Lyman Postell bullet (about 535 grains poured with 20:1 I think). Anyway - I'm already compressing the powder a lot with a compression die.  We were talking on the other post about adding another card between the bullet and the grease cookie which means even more compression (just a bit more) of the powder to make room.

I'm wondering this: 

1 - What loads are other folks using in their .45-70 buffalo rifles and

2 - How much compression is too much (if there is such a thing as too much compression)?

[T.J. McSuds]

 From what I've read, too much compression is when you start crushing the powder. That said, I have compressed the heck out of some loads and would not know if I crushed some of the grains or not. The load I'm working on now is compressed about .250. I'm trying different crimp pressures.

[Tangle Eye]

T. J. - I don't crimp at all.  I just expand the front of the case down to about where the bullet will eventually stop. Understand this isn't a "bell" type of expanding - the die uniformly expands the entire case down to where I want it to stop. Then I start the bullet by hand and seat it with the press. No crimping at all and I've not had any problems with this that I know of.  I'm pretty sure crimping is something the old timers didn't do. I've read where they completely seated the bullet by hand.  Just my 2 cents worth.

[Advertising]

[T.J. McSuds]

 I'm still working on a load for my rifle. Originally I did not crimp but I had bullets creep out of the case enough that I could not chamber them. I have backed off on the powder charge and am trying a very slight crimp.
 The old timers may or may not have crimped their loads. I know that the old tong tool will allow some crimp. Also, I don't think they had the DD/PRS bullet with about 7grs of lube on them.

[Ol Gabe]

Can't find it today, but I recall reading in an article or one of the books on Buff Hunters that they would only load up 100-200 rounds at a time and do it right before they went to work on 'the Stand'. It seemed that this way they wouldn't get to far ahead of the hidemen and wagons and thusly not have so many Buff down to cut up before dark set in for the day. I imagine it depended on the crew but some hunters were said to never, ever touch or cut up a hide, only load and shoot. If this is indeed the case, it might shed some light on why it is said some never crimped the cartridges, if they were loading and shooting them on the same day a crimp might not be needed...maybe, food for thought.
Best regards and good reading!
'Ol Gabe

[Tangle Eye]

I'll be they would sure have enjoyed that DD bullet with all that lube!  Which brings up another question I'll be somebody here knows the answer to: What kind of bullets DID the old buff hunters use?

On another vein -- I've heard the black powder they had in those days had a higher moisture content generally than what we use today so it didn't foul as badly.  I kinda wonder about that - I imagine they used what they could find. But I guess it could be true.

[Delmonico]

I have heard that about the older powders havin' a higher moisture content, but I think the mosture contend would be more of a function of the humidity in the air.  I don't think it would be something that could be incorperated in the powder and be permant.  The only way would be to have some powder from the 19th century that is still in good condition and to do some serious scientific testing.  One would have to keep proper notes and such just like a proper science experiment in collage.  One would have to write a proper paper on the spearimint.

Any body got any brilliant ideas on what would be the best methods to test this.  One would want to crono velocities and compare loads of the same volume with some of the newwer powders,  Also would anyone have an good easy method of being able to measure the mosture content of the soot as removed by a dry patch.  The spearmint would also have to be run on the same day or days with very close humidity levels.

Everyone think about this and give me some ideas here one the proper methods of conducting this testin.

Oh, sorry I forgot to mention, I have about one pound of Austin Musket Powder that has been dated to the 1880's.  It is very close to or is FFg.  I seen the 25 pound keg it came out of, there were about 5-6 pounds in the metal keg and I have a full pint jar of it stored away waiting for the proper time to conduct the experiments.  Let's kick this idea around this winter as to how to do it and conduct the spearmints this spring.  I would be glad to have anyone who is interested in this be there for the firing tests.  I would be glad to write up the results and post them here, on TFS Darksiders and Brimstone.

[Tangle Eye]

Del must be some kind ah perfesser er sumthin. That or he had a bit too much who-hit-john (been readin the other threads too)   

I don't know about all that spearmentin....I bet you'd find there ain't much difference in the powders. I think I read somewhere that black powder would absorb moisture from the air (that's why it causes rust - it absorbs the moisture and holds it on your gun) so it seems to me the moisture content would change as the air humidity changes.

It'd be interestin to compare your old powder with some modern stuff though.  But - once its gone - it gone. 

[Delmonico]

Sorry, the only PHD I got is the kind that cowboys hate, (post hole digger)   I just like guns and history and have spent most of my life researchin' both.  No, the old saw about the old powder containin' more moisture than the newer stuff is impossible.  I know enough chemistry (enough to be dangerous) to know that is impossible, even modern Nitro powders will vary on moisture content as to the humidity that it is in. 

So what is a pint of old powder in a non-original container worth really?  Not much, except as a spearmints.  The friend who bought the powder keg wanted it for a collection, he gave me the powder cause he knew sooner or later it would drive me crazy and I would have to do somethin like this with it.  I don't think we'll find any earth shattering differences in it compared to new powders.  I do know that black powder as a mechanical mixture will not change it's molecular sturcture like Nitro powders can do.

What is sad is about 18 years ago not knowing this, when I was cleaning out a shed at our farm I found 2 cans of black powder that had belonged to my grandfather.  Having heard all the old BS (male bovine poop) about old black powder being unstable I made several piles with a powder train that I safely lit.  In my foolishness (lack of knowledge) I destroyed about 5 pounds of giant powder (blasting powder) dating to before WWII.  Grandpa used it to split cottonwood logs into quarter to fit his heating stove.  I did save the coil of fuse (the old paper kind) it hangs as a decoration in my office.

[T.J. McSuds]

 One of the other legends is that the older powders burned cleaner. I think(scary thought) that the amount of soot could be measured. Using a scale, weigh some patches. After firing identical weight loads. Puch a dry patch through the bore and weigh them. Could be interesting but useless information to put old myths in question. Just think of the nasty e-mails you could recieve.
 The velocity and the variation between shots could also but checked between old and new powders. I personally think(there I go again, I guess I need a beer) that the new powders will be better.

[Noah Mercy]

Hey, Tangle Eye, I'm just now getting into loading the proper gunpowder in my Sharps. Looks like your load is per the book, but I'm finding all sorts of ways to change the way a load shoots, even with the same charge weight. Card wads of different thicknesses, different amounts of compression, crimp or no crimp, primer type (sometimes)- can tighten or loosen the groups. I compress black up to .400" with a compression die. It sounds excessive, but think pelletized powder, coz' that's pretty much what you end up with. I know the buff hunters couldn't use the equipment we have available to us now, but unless you plan on loading at the match, it's a moot point. If you do insist on loading like they did, you are not likely to realize the full potential of your rifle. (Though you might...single shots are persnickety and individual things.) 

[Capt Henry]

Tangle Eye
I read that you are getting a lot of compression with 60 grains of 3F Swiss, Not knowing what a "lot of Compression" means I have to ask if you are using a compression die only or are you also using a drop tube as well.
I use 65 grains of 2F Swiss behind a 535 grain Paul Jones bullet 20-1 Federal mag primer and a .030 Walters wad with a newspaper disc between the bullet and wad. and I have .160 compression using a 24 inch drop tube with the overall cartridge lenght at 2.70. I use fireformed Winchester brass neck sized only with a slight bell no crimp in fact I leave the bell as it helps center the case in the chamber, at least thats what the experts tell me....it does work for me.
I am loading for a Shiloh Sharps 45-70 altho the same basic principles apply to the Browning 40-65 I also load for.

I use a slug cut the same length as the bullet and set the powder at the correct depth with a standard seating die. then you know there is no air gap between the powder and bullet and you also will have the overall lenght set as well, plus you do not have to use the bullet to compress the powder and take a chance of bumping up the diameter of the bullet. I seat the bullet with a Redding comp die.
 The Lyman bullet is very close to the PJ bullet in shape and weight, I used the Lyman before I got the Paul Jones mould and this method has worked very well for me,
If you don't mind me suggesting you  might use a 24 inch or 30 inch drop tube and you will find the powder settles a lot lower and more even and you do not get the crush on the top powder grains. I have found accuracy improved as well for the rifles I shoot
.
This has process has worked very well for me, of course every rifle requires something a little different, hope this helps. 

[Delmonico]

The brand of brass also makes a big difference in the amount of powder.  I am still using the Remington brass I bought in 95.  It holds a lot less powder than Winchester brass and if I remember right the starline holds about as much as the winchester.  When I got my brass it was either pay wholesale for the Remington or retail for the Winchester sine the normal supplier my friend delt with was out of Winchester and they said about two months to get it back.

[Tangle Eye]

Hey Capt Henry - I have a drop tube and have used it some. I haven't measure the difference but I'm sure you're right about it settling better. I'll probably be using it from now on.  My biggest change I'm workin on right now is whether to use a grease cookie or somethin similar.  I'm gonna try that felt dipped in lube that Delmonico was talkin about but I may put a newspaper card on top of it to make sure it doesn't stick to the bullet - or that some of the lube doesn't stick to the bullet. 

That's part of the fun of shooting these big rifles for me is finding just the right combination.  So far using only a card wad on top of the powder and seating the bullet on top of that has been the best thing.  I'd like to get more lube in there though which is why I'm tryin the cookie or homemade wonder wad thing.

[Capt Henry]

Tangle Eye
Guess it depends on what bullet you are using and wether it will carry enough lube, The Postell worked pretty good, the Paul Jones better as it has larger lube grooves. I am using SPG lube and in a 32 inch barrel it seems to work ok as long as I blow tube between shots. I have just made up some bore pigs to use, and from the last try they may be the answer. to fouling.
I have found that Swiss fouling is a little heaver that Goex but the Swiss performs better with the loads I have worked up.
I have used a lube cookie but only on paper patch bullets and its more work that I wanted to do altho they shot good.
Rolland

[Uncle Eph]

Capt, I have never heard the term "bore pig".  I think I know what you are talking about, but if you would be so kind as to explain, I would be in your debt.

[Capt Henry]

Uncle Eph
I don't know where the term came from, but they are made with a bore brush with 3M green scrubby washers followed by a rubber washer. You wet them and push them down the bore after each shot, to clean the fouling. They work really well, you can see a photo and also where to buy them at www.bpcr.net if you are interested. I made mine (could not afford the asking price)
Rolland

[Uncle Eph]

Capt,
live and learn, I had not seen that little trick before.  I visit BPCR.net at least once a day and this was the first time that I checked out the supplies.

after firing my fouling shot I only run a rod with a wet patch thur my rifles until I am thur for the day, depending on the match and the weather that might be between every shot or between stages.

thanks for the info.

[Delmonico]

 Ok, why didn't you heathens tell me about this site before!!!!

I'm gonna 'xplore it some more, but I'm bout ready ta go make some supper cause I is hungry, gonna go make some cowboy quick food.

JFYI I use windshield washer fluid to clean my barrel with.  I buy white flannel and cut it into patches.  I Then fill up two of those little brown yeast jars with patches (ok, I'm a cook first, I've emptied many of them and often save them. )

I then pour the solvent in one jar and keep the other one dry.  Got the idea watching TV one day, some pad that teenagers wipe their face with to prevent zits comes in a jar like that.

[Uncle Eph]

Del, we just did not want to confuse ya.