Help; Lost Cylinder Pin Retaining Nut - DAKOTA!

[Uncle Jaque]

Having recently acquired a .44 Spl. DAKOTA (Jaeger / EMF) I posted about it over on:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,8941.0.html

After firing it for the first time (for me, anyway) I gave it a good cleaning, greased up my leather gear and all was well with the world... except, perhaps, for the trigger pull. 
Not only is it awful, but I noticed that when I squeeze the trigger, the hammer comes back a tiny bit, almost like "double action".   Is this normal in a SAA?   Methinks it needs some tweakage.

Anyway, after getting up this morning I was happily playing with my new 6-shooter - dryfiring at our well pipe in the front yard outside my window - when I heard something hit the floor.

Checking around on the carpet, I discovered the cylinder pin retaining plunger screw - but the nut and spring are nowhere to be found, despite shaking out my holster and searching around the house.

When I bought the gun, I thought that the plunger looked pretty anemic, with it's rotating "safety" mechanism built into the pin.  I get the impressing that this "safety" is in a class with those installed in milsurp Tokarevs to meet Federal requirements for importation, and not seriously expected to be used for anything.   When a little stud on the front of the pin is rotated downwards, a small lug mounted eccentrically on the rear end of the pin turns up to block the base of the hammer and stop it before the firing pin reaches the primer.
When turned back upwards, the lug turns to engage in a little divot on the left side of said hammer base, which allows it to fall all the way.   Immediately under and behind the "handle" stud there is a shallow indent painted red inside to create a warning "fire" status dot.

Farby as hell, and I would not mind replacing it with a more authentic version if I could.

Scrounging around in my parts bins, I came up with a spring that looks about right - but no nut of any sort with a thread tiny enough to engage the threaded end of that itty - bitty little plunger screw.

The Dimensions and such are contained in the following illustration:

Where might I find a replacement nut?  Or better yet; How can I replace the whole plunger assembly with one that is sufficiently rugged to WORK reliably and not fall apart?

Ironically, the same thing happened with my .22 Colt Frontier Scout over 30 years ago, and I ended up replacing it with a simple screw - in retainer.  It was a pain to dismount the cyl. for cleaning, but at least I could pull the little pistol without worrying about the cylinder falling out and the pin rolling around in the bottom of my holster.

I'd like to ream the cross-hole out as much as I can while leaving enough pin to retain sufficient strength at the cut-out and install a more beefy retainer if I could.

Any suggestions?

[warbucks16]

Uncle Jaque:

You might check Numerich Arms at: www.e-gunparts.com

They appear to have the complete assembly available on thier Web Site.

Regards,

Warbucks16

[Uncle Jaque]

Thanks - I was just thinking of that option myself - them or perhaps Brownell's.

What I'd really like to do is find a more authentic / sturdy setup that I could retrofit into this gun - wouldn't mind a new cyl. pin sans the cheezy "safety" either if I can pull it off.
  With my old 1905 FRASSE lathe I could probably turn a fair one down if need be. 

I'm not a pro Gunsmith by any means but I've been tinkering with guns for the past 40 years or so and can generally pull off a reasonable fair job on most small repairs.

Has anybody in here done such a retrofit?

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[Guage Rod]

If you have a Italian, colt, clone and need parts try VTI replicas, they carry parts for all of the Itallian colt clones as well as most of the winchester clones being produced.  They are fairly affordable.  I believe their web site is something like <vtiGunparts.com> or just type in VTI replicas and do a web search I believe that is how I found them.  They are a heck of a lot cheaper than most parts locations.  While you are at it you might try buying a triger spring.  If you do, both Parts will fit in a small envelope and your shiping will be pretty cheap.  They have a realy good turn around, usualy less than 5 days in most parts of the country.  VTI used to be a primary importer of the uberti guns, and has all of the exploded diagrams and parts numbers, and are easy to work with. 

Vaya Con Dios!   

[Uncle Jaque]

Muchos gracias for the tip, Amigo!

Sure enough; it's at

www.VTIGunparts.com

And here:

VTI GunParts - UBERTI 1873 SAA Parts List

is the link to the "Cattleman" parts list. 

That Schematic

is a dead ringer for my revolver, right down to the old-style hammer mounted firing pin.

What concerns me a little is that this gun has what a lot of them don't; a "Base Pin Bushing" (#187).

I was all set to order a Colt 1st Model repro base pin, but don't know if it would be the right diameter since as far as I know the Colts don't use this bushing... do they?

Probably the safest bet would be to buy the Uberti version (sans safety).
If at all possible i would like to replace the stock base pin retainer assembly with a more robust one. 
If all I have to do is drill out the hole through the frame a couple of thousandths, not a prob.;
If there is an alignment issue of some sort though, I may not want to try it.

Do any of you out there have both a Colt original or authentic repro as well as one of these Ubertis to compare?  I'd be interested in what differences there might be between the base pins and retaining plunger assembly.

You are right in that the prices for these parts are the most reasonable I've seen thus far - VTI is in the bookmark list for sure  - and thanks again!

[Guage Rod]

UJ, I believe the original colts (1st Generation) came with the base pin bushing, I am not sure about the rest.  I have one AWA clone that is nickel plated and it has the bushing, I have a Bereta stallion, (also made by uberti for Bereta) that is made with out the bushing.  If I am not mistaken the base pins are interchangeable.  As there are, varriations on the theme, I would call the folks at VTI.  Might be worth while to MIC the culprit, and see if they have what you are looking for.  I do not recall ever talking with them about such but chances are you will not be disapointed.  I agree with you they have the prices of their items in a very comfortable range.  If you are a bit of an amature gun smith, why not buy a new hammer spring Part 20, and file or grind it down to reduce the hammer pull down some.  This is a tempered steel part and it must not get too hot so keep quenching as you grind.  It starts out looking stock, scribe a line about 1/6 inch thiner about 1/4 inch above and below the end of the piece  on both side and thin her down so it looks like a capital I, be sure to bottle neck with a radius, at $8.00 bucks or so a pop, you can afford to buy one or two extras to practice with.  I have been told it is better to try and remeove the metal longitudinaly so as not to place small horizontal cracks in the metal.  Best of luck on your gun tuning

Vaya Con Dios!   

[Uncle Jaque]

I just ordered a new base pin (I'm pretty confident that it'll fit) and replacement nut and spirng for the stock base pin retainer, as they are cheap enough and I can loc-tite the bloody thing on while I investigate other options.

Getting a spare mainspring too; I don't think I'll lighten it too much, as I intend for this revolver to be primaraly a utility and field sidearm, as opposed to "competition" piece.   The cold weather up here in Maine can raise hell with spring tension, and a lot of deer have been missed when a rifle misfires from a cold, sluggish spring.

Dependability has a little priority over speed for this old coot!

I might do a little tweaking with the innards and grips while waiting for the parts to arrive - will holler if I need consultation.

[Uncle Jaque]

My order from VTI Gun Parts was recieved today.
It only took a couple of days to arrive - I'm impressed!

The base pin (400021)/no) proves to be a sloppy fit in my EMF Uberti "Dakota", allowing for too much cylinder wobble.

My original base pin, according to my micrometer, has a .256" dia., while the new one is .250".

I hoppe that I can exchange this pin for one of  the proper dia. if available.
If i could only have one that was a bit larger than .256" I could turn it down on my lathe.

If  not,  perhaps there might be a replacement bushing with a shank OD of  .350" and an ID of .250 to fiit the new pin?

The pin retainer nut  (UB:400139) does not fit my screw.  It;s outside diameter (.240") is too large for the cutout in my frame, and it will not  go onto my screw beyond a couple of turns, which leaves the assembly much too long and unworkable.
 
My screw has a body and shank of 15/32" length each, and  only the last 1/16" of the shank (.10" dia.) is threaded with a very fine thread.   The body is .20" in diameter.

I may end up buying theirr corresponding pin screw and opening up the holes in the frame to .240" to accept the set, as I want to beef up the assembly from it's original configuration.

Will wait until we see what can be done about the base pin to act on that though. 

Of course any suggestions or reccomendations you might have will be appreciated.

[Uncle Jaque]

Well whaddaya know; while patting our little yorkie-poo "Maggie", what do I spot on the bedroom floor beside her but the missing plunger nut!   (It wasn't there when I searched for it a couple of days ago...

The spring is still among the missing, but the one I'd ordered from VTI fit fine, so at least now I'm back up and in running order, albeit with my funky, farby "safety" equipped base pin and teeny little lock plunger.

Having achieved that state of affairs, it was time to reassemble my Dakota; after, that is, a tune-up.

I guess I rememberd enough from my percussion days to pull it off; the trigger is now clean and a lot lighter.  hardly any take up, and that is a smooth slide rather than a rocky drag as it was, followed by a clean, sharp break.  A definite improvement.

The walnut handle also got a re-do.

 I removed quite a bit of wood in thinning down the midsection, leaving the classic Colt flare at the butt (sort of like the lower leg of a pair of bell-bottomed trousers) and angling up the bottom sides a little.

The factory finish, which looked like clear candy-apple polyurethane of some sort, was carefully removed and when I got it how I wanted it - the good old fashioned "plowhandle" look and feel - I rubbed in some BLO mixed with tung oil.

Not only does it look more like a classic M-1873, but the whole gun seems to balance better than it did, and just feels "right" in my hand.

What with the arrival of our first Grandchild expected tomorrow, it may be a while before I get out to the range again, but hope to before subzero temps roll in. 
Range report to follow.