Oil VS Alcohol?

[Uncle Chan]

Gents, I'm a novice at the leather stuff and didn't learn until yesterday that to get the soft leather feel I have with my San Pedro Saddlery holster, that it should have been dyed with oil-based dye, rather than the alcohol.  As a result, my holsters are quite stiff and subject to easy scratching (I do most of my stuff in black).  Leather Factory told me to next time:  cut, case, and stamp, THEN, slather with neatsfoot oil, wait 24hrs, buff, dye with oil-based dye, wait 24hrs, buff, slather with neatsfoot oil, wait 24hrs, buff, then coat with tan kote.  That should give me a soft, maleable and well-protected holster.

BTW, Nolan Sackett, I just ordered your Holster-Making DVD this evening and since I grew up watching Loony Tunes, I fully expect to get it any second now!!!  Can't wait!! 

Any help?  What are your preferences?  Is it possible to soften leather dyed with alcohol base and protect it like LF says to do with oil-based dyes?

  Thanks Kindly,

Uncle Chan

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Oil-based dyes will tend to make a softer holster. Careful how much neetsfoot oil you put on. If the leather takes too much, it will get too pliable and won't hold its shape. That's OK for a belt, but not for a holster or rig where shape and rigidity is a benefit. You only want enough to keep the leather from feeling dry.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

Absolutely NEVER use neatsfoot oil on leather!  The stuff is made to soften the hooves of LIVE horses and cattle.  It will destroy the fibers of tanned leather!  Oh, not immediately... but it won't be long.

The way to tool, dye and treat topgrain vegetable-tanned leather is to wet with water, then tool.  Allow the leather to dry flat.  Now, as to which dye you use, that's up to you.  I personally use alcohol-based Fiebing's dyes.  With black dyes, I get best results using a 50/50 mix of Fiebing's Black and Tan.  Depending on how many applications you use, you can get anything from a faded black to black-black.  (I market this as 'Faded Arsenal' in my catalog.)

Allow the leather to dry thoroughly.  Then treat the leather on both sides with Lexol Leather Conditioner(R).  But do it LIGHTLY! You can always apply some more, but it usually isn't necessary.  And too much can really ruin the leather!  Do your stitching and then (in the instance of a holster) you can wet fit the holster to the gun.  DON'T soak the leather in a bucket, or anything of the sort.  Run it under cool tap water until the leather is moist (30 seconds is usually enough), then form to the gun.  (I usually stick the gun in a plastic baggie, wrapped tight around the gun.  When wet-fitting a Colt's style gun, with the ejector on the lower side of the barrel, make a "tunnel" from the ejector thumbpiece toward the top of the holster, rather than letting a pocket form, which can trap the gun.  Allow the holster to dry for a couple of hours with the gun in it, then remove the gun and allow the leather to dry overnight.  Try the gun in it, and form the holster a bit more until it is the looseness desired.  You may need to use a 7/8" dia. hardwood dowell with the end rounded slightly to do the initial forming of the holster "pipe" for the barrel.  Use smaller hardwood dowells for forming the trigger guard and the extractor thumbpiece while the leather is still wet.

Hope this is of some help.

Remember 9/11!

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[Buffalo]

  .

  Absolutely NEVER use neatsfoot oil on leather!  The stuff is made to soften the hooves of LIVE horses and cattle.  It will destroy the fibers of tanned leather!  Oh, not immediately... but it won't be long.

I could not disagree more. I was taught by a saddle maker that has been making them for 50 years. Neatsfoot oil is what he uses the most. I have seen several very old saddles made by him that are in excellent shape. In my opinion he is one of the very best. He swears by neatsfoot oil and his work shows why. Maybe you are just using cheap Mexican leather.
Buff

[Nolan Sackett]

Absolutely NEVER use neatsfoot oil on leather!  The stuff is made to soften the hooves of LIVE horses and cattle.  It will destroy the fibers of tanned leather!  Oh, not immediately... but it won't be long..............Then treat the leather on both sides with Lexol Leather Conditioner(R).

With all due respect Trail Rider - Lexol Conditioner is based on Neats Foot oil, it's  sulphurated/sulphanated (never can remember which............... I too prefer/recommend Lexol since it's harder to screw up with (and I basically follow Trail Rider's method of dying when I use modern dyes and agree with him that leather can be over conditioned), but that old saw about pure Neats Foot oil "destroying" leather has actually been proven to be incorrect by a couple of different independent scientific laboratory tests in the last ten years or so (and my own experience of doing a ton of repair work over the last 45+ years says otherwise as well - something I highly recommend one do if at all possible as it will teach you lots of info about leather work/care that you'll normally never learn in any other way...)

Again OVER OILING/CONDITIONING in my experience is the culprit not so much the type of oil (neatsfoot compound is another story) .....leather is best at an 18-22% oil level - more that that and you expand/break down the cell walls, which causes the problems not the type of oil per se...........

Dye: when I do use "modern" dyes I prefer the less expensive Fiebings spirit dyes (notice a pattern!  - those sales people are slick! ) - actually the oil dye has the same base as the spirit dye, both use nasty, toxic solvents such as toluene - which are in fact what cause the leather to stiffen - they drive out the oils/conditioners put into the leather by the tannery - so waht you need to do is add back some oil/conditioner - too much though and you'll turn the leather into a limp rag......
Back in the "good ole days" all the professional leather crafters I studied under, made (and I still make at times) their own oil dye. When making it up I use the regular spirit dye and add some light oil - the Lexol non-greasy Neatsfoot oil works or my own preference is a good, cold pressed olive oil.........I emulsify it in an old blender (If married - DO NOT use the wife's) - put a cup to a pint of the dye in the blender and turn it on high, through the hole in the top drizzle the oil in slowly - 3 tablespoons to an 1/8 cup works good. One caveat though - when using either oil before dying or in the dye or during the dying, you MUST seal afterwards with something like tan kote or bag kote or...... otherwise (in my experience) you'll never get the dye to quit bleeding (especially black) - the oil acts as a carrier for the dye (which is powdered pigment in a solvent/carrier) and it will continually "float" the pigment to the surface. What the oil does is help open the pores of the leather to help carry the dye into rather than just on it - but as Trail Rider noted so does water and it evaporates off helping to obviate the rub off problem.......

As for black dye - I no longer us ANY of the commercail black dyes, at least not on bark/veg tan leather - I use what was used during the 19th century and before - vinegaroon, which is fact not a dye ,but rather a chemical reagent - it works by reacting with the tannin in the leather (only works on bark/veg tan leather) - the great thing is - it NEVER/CAN'T rub off and IMO makes the best, richest black when done right and it never rubs off!!! (did I say that twice - you bet!!!  )........!!! If you want more info on vinegaroon let me know and I'll post a how to.........it's easy to make and use and mixed with other natural dyes (or commercail dyes) can be tweaked for an aged color/patina.......

as always others mileage WILL vary...........

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I'm interested in your vinegaroon and vinegaroon/commercial dye information, Nolan. How about starting a thread just for that so others can find it easily, too? Much appreciated.

[Brazos Jack]

Gather around the fire Boys, let me tell you a little story.

When I was nine years old, my Dad had saved some money for a brand new pair of chaps. They finally arrived and they were a bit stiff, as new ones are, and so he commented that he would oil them to help break them in. Well, me always being the helpful sort, I decided to take on the task myself. So, while Dad was out I took them brand new chaps and put me some Neatsfoot oil on 'em . . . . about half a can! Well, if a little bit does a little bit of good . . . .

Anyway, we don't want to go into what happened when my Dad saw what I had done with his brand new chaps!

The moral of the story . . . . A little bit does a WHOLE LOT of good!



PS: I love my Dad, and I miss him.

[Capt. Augustus]

Nolan, I'm interested in this black without dye also.

[Trailrider]

  .I could not disagree more. I was taught by a saddle maker that has been making them for 50 years. Neatsfoot oil is what he uses the most. I have seen several very old saddles made by him that are in excellent shape. In my opinion he is one of the very best. He swears by neatsfoot oil and his work shows why. Maybe you are just using cheap Mexican leather.
Buff

Howdy, Pard,
While Lexol Leather Conditioner does use Neat's foot oil as a base, it has other things in it that counter the effects of pure NFO.  If one is adverse to Lexol LC, the use of carnuba cremes is okay, though I have been using Lexol for years, with excellent results.  But you are right...TOO much of anything isn't good for leather!

BTW, at the recent meeting of the Association of Air Force Missileers, I ran into my old boss from my 1960's active duty tour.  Now I had made a holster and belt, both dyed black with Fiebing's spirit-based dye, for his 2nd Gen. Colt's Buntline Special...the first leather work I ever did for somebody other than myself!  I asked him about it, and he said he not only still has it, and it is in good condition (he uses creme dressings on the leather, as needed), but he STILL wears it when out hunting in Northern Michigan!  I made that rig about 38 years ago, long before I started making leather professionally!    (He did pay for the materials.)

One reason black dyes TODAY are not as color-fast as they were about 30 years ago, is that the feds made the manufacturers take the toluene and xylene out, as being carcinogenic!  Don't know whether they were concerned about the manufacturing personnel or the end-user, but if the toluene is still in the oil-based dies, it is probably in a reduced amount.  I would, however, use protective gloves...I use vinyl ones obtainable at the drugstore...when applying the dyes!  A ventilated area or exhaust fan is also very advisable!