Clothing Question re: Authenticity

[Sundown Storm]

Yikes, Plaids?
I can only hope that those Cowboys of Yore were at least tactful enough not to wear plaid bib front shirts with striped slacks...

 

[Terry Lane]

Sundown,
I fear you've "awakened a sleeping giant" when you ask a question about stripes and plaids with Del in earshot. Take care.

[Sundown Storm]

No Offense, Del 
I'm sure that stripes and plaids erm... I'll just close my trap, now...

[Advertising]

[Delmonico]

I never wear plaid and stripes together with out what I got a paisley banndana to go with it.

Just remember folks had different ideas as to what looked good.  Sit down and watch a "Modern Make-Over Show" sometime, you'll see how really far the human world has regressed.

[Sundown Storm]

To be fair, Del, I was only totting out the old hack about stripes and plaids. I honestly don't find anything wrong with it, I simply prefer solids before anything else, though, a paisley pattern shirt catches my fancy from time to time, so long as the pattern is small.
I admit stripes and plaids have never fascinated me, and I'm certain that prejudices me.
Whilst I was at work today, a gentleman came into the store and was wearing a bib-front shirt that had a large bullseye on the front, and it was covered in paint. apparently, he belongs to a 'wild west paintball' club.

[Frank Dalton]

Just adding a thought or two to the stripes and plaid discussion (although kind of jokingly brought up, the subject is really a good addition to the authenticity question.)

Most pictures I have seen of "cowboy" clothing show that they wore a mix of patterns regularly. Was this dandy-ing or just practical, to wear out an article of clothing before replacing it?

You had to buy what ever style was available, or make an article of clothing with what ever material was handy. You wore a mix of colors and patterns because it was all you had. You were lucky if you owned one set of clothes for everyday and one set for special occassions. Buying ready-made clothing was still extravagant, though becoming more readily available where trains regularly passed through. Since the military was the major user of "ready-made" clothing, those people living near military installations would have access to excess inventory. In many cases, locally made clothing was less expensive than buying "ready-made".

I'm sure that just like wishing to own a set of pearl handle pistols, many cow-pokes felt a need to dress up with a new set of clothes when they reached the end of the trail, to signify that they had money in their pocket and were able to pay for drinks and "entertainment" from the women-folk.

Town folk, on the other hand, were more subject to the Victorian tastes (being more "civilized") of wearing suits with waistcoats and ties most everyday, and would have more tendencies to wear matching patterns and colors. Some of those worn for everyday were in patterns that would be considered garish by modern standards. Large "window pane" patterns were commonly used for "sack" suits, so it seems that even the prim victorians found ways to stand-out while still being "proper".

I'm finding that I like a mix of clothing styles and patterns, but admit I dress more like a townie most of the time. In summer though, I tend to dress more "cowboy".

[St. George]

One thing Cowboys weren't afraid of was 'color'...

Nor 'pattern'...

Plus - after a long drive, with sun bleaching and alkalai dust caking  and rain 'washing' everything - clothing took one hell of a beating.

Especially since the average cowpoke owned so little of it.

He'd buy a new outfit when he got paid - and if he didn't have much - then maybe one of the town's seamstresses had something a bit less expensive than the Dry Goods store.

The Victorian Era sprouted some really eye-catching outfits - corsets and petticoats aside - and the 'Dandy' in every man had something, somewhere that would suit his sense of 'style'.

As to folks having access to surplus Army clothing - no.

There was no 'surplus' system available to them - and most folks didn't want any 'military' connotation to their dress.

Older styles of uniforms were worn until worn out by troopers whose Congress wasn't funding the Army properly.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Pawnee Bill]

 I thought this might be of interest to some.
 Knit shirts
 These are copy’s of army purchases but these shirts were made by civie clothing manufactures mostly in NY
 I have two of these and they are dandy they are only avalible a few times a year but are in stock now from
The Jersey skillet licker
Cheers
Pawnee Bill




http://www.skilletlicker.com/blouses.htm

[Delmonico]

I'm going to add a thought here, many say the cowboys wore what they could get, true, but what they could get would depend on where they were when the need and the money arose.  A railroad town where the herd was sold often had more than one well stocked dry goods stores.  You see the "wild" blends in the studio potos they had took after cleaning up and buying new clothes.  this indicates that they chose these "blends" because they liked them.

Also when WT Sherman addressed the Texas Legaslature in the middle 70's on the banning of buffalo hunting for hides he said to let the kill and skin till not a buffalo was let and then "the colorful cowboy" would replace the Indians.

Don't forget the Wild Bill outfit with striped pants, a vest with roses on it and the plaid lining of his frock coat.  The photo shows the plaid well.  That was a cutom tailored suit.

Wild colors of course would be out of place for someone who wanted to blend in like a buffalo hunter or an army scout.

[Frenchie]

I hate to be a fly in the ointment, but the men's suits on the 'Plainly Dressed' Web site are polyester, or did I miss something? Keep in mind, I do Civil War reenacting/living history and polyester is strictly verboten.

The shirts are cotton or linen and the overcoats are wool and look great, although they probably need period buttons. The shirts look dead-on for just about any time in our period, but get the drop-shoulder style if you're doing pre-1870 or so.

I have an Amish-made straw hat, it is not to be beat and inexpensive too, but I didn't get it from there - can't remember where I got it, but in hot weather it's the cat's meow and very correct for the entire period.

For really good uniforms etc. that will be correct right up to the new Army uniform regs of 1872, see E.J. Thomas http://www.ejtsutler.com./ and Carter & Jasper http://www.carterandjasper.com/ and Nick Sekela http://www.njsekela.com/main/main.html, e-mail nick@njsekela.com, tell them Frenchie LaFrance sent you.

[Major 2]

Frenchy...

He was asking about pants ( Blue jeans in fact ) and stated he was a large size.
I gave him the Plainly dressed link for the pants ,  they list sizes in 36-54 several fabrics in denim & and corduroys.

Yep, they have polyester suits too and your right ,polyester will make your persona non Grata.

I too reenacted , for nearly 30 years....

[Frank Dalton]

As to folks having access to surplus Army clothing - no.

There was no 'surplus' system available to them - and most folks didn't want any 'military' connotation to their dress.

Would you mind sharing your source for these statements? I would like to learn more, as in all the reading I have done there has been no mention of either.

Thanks!

[Delmonico]

Myself I would have looked at the materials afore I ordered anything.   Anybody else would a done the same thing?

[Frenchie]

He was asking about pants ( Blue jeans in fact ) and stated he was a large size.
I gave him the Plainly dressed link for the pants ,  they list sizes in 36-54 several fabrics in denim & and corduroys.

Yep, they have polyester suits too and your right ,polyester will make your persona non Grata.

I too reenacted , for nearly 30 years....

See, there's a good example of tunnel vision on my part, I saw that word "polyester" and forgot the original reason for the link.  Maybe I've been thinking about uniform authenticity too much lately  

[Frenchie]

As to folks having access to surplus Army clothing - no.

There was no 'surplus' system available to them - and most folks didn't want any 'military' connotation to their dress.

Older styles of uniforms were worn until worn out by troopers whose Congress wasn't funding the Army properly.

I beg to differ, there was a system for selling excess uniform stock, directly from the military and from the contractors who made too much or had rejects on hand. It is true that forces in the field often preferred to wear out their old uniforms before putting on their new outfits, but this wasn't always true, depending on the commanding officer's decision. For instance, the 3rd US Infantry Regiment was issued sky blue trousers about October of 1861 and wore them from the git-go even though they still had unissued dark blues, which were packed up and shipped to Washington.

As to a 'military' connection to civilian dress, during the War it was fashionable for ladies and children to wear jackets and shirtwaists cut to resemble the uniforms worn by Giuseppe Garibaldi's revolutionary forces in Italy, and also to mimic those worn by the Zouave troops as adopted by American militia units.

[St. George]

What we're talking about is a later era, for one thing - and there weren't 'Army-Navy Surplus' stores around until Bannerman's opened up his doors after the Spanish-American War.

Individual Regimental idiosyncracies and over-patriotic civilians aside - the comment was directed towards the concept that the Army actively sold its spare clothing from the Fort - when in fact - it really wasn't equipped well enough to have a surplus on the Frontier.

The American Civil War's beginnings saw all manner of colorful uniforms - Zouaves being at the top of the heap.

Civilians on both sides all were wildly supportive of their boys whom they were certain would prevail and be home soon and they wore numerous things reflecting their enthusiasm.

Then, the War got serious at Bull Run, and a helluva lot of the more 'colorfully dressed' boys died under the sights of superior Confederate marksmanship...

By War's end, however - the Federals were a literal killing machine and none of those 'colorful' outfits were in use - being replaced by more practical and certainly less visible clothing.

And folks were tired of it all...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Frank Dalton]

What we're talking about is a later era, for one thing - and there weren't 'Army-Navy Surplus' stores around until Bannerman's opened up his doors after the Spanish-American War.

I think that is where the confusion may be taking place since I didn't say there was a "Army-Navy Surplus" store that people would get the clothing items from, just mentioned that

those people living near military installations would have access to excess inventory

. I readily admit I don't have a quotable source for this info, so maybe it should have read "could" have. I was talking about pants, shirts, boots & etc. that could have come from a number of sources on post, not just the quartermaster. Sorry I didn't make that comment clearer earlier.

The whole point is moot as within a very few years (post 1878) the towns got larger, any many of the forts were no longer needed since the "Indian Threat" had effectively passed. That supply source, if available, would have been short-lived.

[Frenchie]

Ah, well, then, if we're going to move the goalposts, I'll just leave you to practice your punting. 

[St. George]

If nothing else - we're certainly civilized, here.

And believe me - it's appreciated.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

One thing I have noted in accounts of the time and I don't know how it was handled as far as paper work, but there are accounts of folks being desolate and being issued clothing by a fort quartermaster. 

The account that comes to mind is Jules Sandoz after his fall into the well and staying for several months at Fort Robinson under the care of Dr. Walter E. Reed.

This would of course place the stigma of someone down on their luck.  Just another thought on it.