LEVER ACTIONS

[mustanger 1952]

WHAT IF ANY LEVER ACTION RIFLES WERE USED AS BUFFALO GUNS?

[Pawnee Bill]

WHAT IF ANY LEVER ACTION RIFLES WERE USED AS BUFFALO GUNS?

Plenty were used for Runnen but I have never heard of any used for stand shooting.
Cheers
Pawnee Bill

[Delmonico]

Till after the Hide Hunting era, the lever actions were to underpowered to make a good buffalo gun.

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[TAkaho kid]

Hello Mustanger,

I am sure quite a few buffs were dropped with a levergun by the ocassional person wanting some meat fro the table. The serious commercial hunters stuck with the big single shots. However, I cannot even begain to tell you how many photos I have seen "from the day" that show a hunting outfit complete with a big single shot front and center and at least one levergun for camp defense or small game hunting.

Spencer's were used a bit early on. However even in sporting rifle guise they simply did not offer the power needed for a buff.


With the exception of the 1886 and Marlin 1881 leveractions which could handle a 500 grain bullet but came along way too late, most of the 45 and 50 cal. leveractions of the day were firing express type cartridges. (i.e. a light bullet 300 - 400 grain traveling as fast as BP could push it) The idea was to increase point blank range by increasing velocity and flattening the trajectory. They are devestating out to 100 - 150 yrds. However, they lack penetration for a tough buff.

Here is a good comparison:

A 45-70-550 paper patch leaves the muzzle at just over 1100 FPS but will punch clean through a buff at 100 yrds. (providing no bone is hit)

A 45-70-300 grease groove Express load leaves the muzzle at well over 1450 fps. It will get stuck somewhere inside the same buff. Yes modern jacketed bullets get stuck inside too but they kill diffrent then soft lead bullets they use shock and massive tissue damage. BP and soft lead uses penetration. A buff with a clean hole through both lungs wont go far. However, with only one lung holed he could go for a long, long, time with no apperant ill.

With that all said and done I would still like to have that Spencer sporting rifle along with a nice conversion revovler and of course the skining knives to complete the rig.

[Grapeshot]

"Yes modern jacketed bullets get stuck inside too but they kill diffrent then soft lead bullets they use shock and massive tissue damage. BP and soft lead uses penetration."

Just to set the record straight.  A Paper Patched pure lead .45 to .50 caliber bullet will expand to darn near double it's frontal diameter as it plows through a Buffalo.  The meat is pulped and blood vessals are ruptured causing massive shock due to blood loss, especially through the lung/heart area.  What doesn't pool up in the lungs will flow out the exit wound.  Yeah, modern jacketed soft and hollow points do essentially the same thing, but what they don't have is the homogenius makeup as the solid lead bullet that allows the lead slug to retain most of its weight as it travels through the animal.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I keep seeing references to "rules say" wrt what rifles are considered legit for long range shoots.

Where is this actually written down?

[not trying to kick up a hornets nest, I just don't see where these rules are listed]

AFAIK, the 1876 big bore rifles were well respected.

Also, I thought I had read that several hunters still had muzzleloaders and 61 Springfields (non-trapdoor conversions) when they took many a hide.

[Delmonico]

Many muzzle-loaders were used early on in the hunts, but early on anyone with a gun was hunting hides (1871-1872) The hunters who stayed with it used breech loaders, mostly Sharps, Remingtons and Trapdoors.  I have never seen any referance to any serious comercial hunters using a 1876 rifle for buffalo, not saying they wouldn't work or that some might have.  One problem, the rounds mostly used a light for caliber bullet, these tend to lack penatration on really large game.

I know the NCOWS buffalo hunts require a single-shot hammer gun of a type used during the buffalo hunts.  Other games have other rules, I am not sure of all of them

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I know the NCOWS buffalo hunts require a single-shot hammer gun of a type used during the buffalo hunts.  Other games have other rules, I am not sure of all of them

Where is this written? I have looked high and low and can't find a reference...

There was an article in the winter issue of Black Powder Cartridge where one of the hunters carried an 1876, I believe.

I have seen other references... as far as commercial, I still have learning to do...

[Delmonico]

If you are refering to the NCOWS buffalo hunts take this question up to the Forum, I know I've seen it written down, but don't remember where. 

I am sure many used the 76 to hunt buffalo, I guess I have always considered the buffalo hunter the guys who hunted hides for profit in the era between the spring of 1871 and the spring of 1882, when the last of the large herds were destroyed to the point it no longer paid.  Perhaps a better name for them is in order since many others hunted buffalo, for food, fun and profit.

[Pawnee Bill]

If you are refering to the NCOWS buffalo hunts take this question up to the Forum, I know I've seen it written down, but don't remember where. 

I am sure many used the 76 to hunt buffalo, I guess I have always considered the buffalo hunter the guys who hunted hides for profit in the era between the spring of 1871 and the spring of 1882, when the last of the large herds were destroyed to the point it no longer paid.  Perhaps a better name for them is in order since many others hunted buffalo, for food, fun and profit.

 Historically speaking:
 Today when one speaks of Buffalo Hunters everyone immediately thinks of commercial hide hunters. When in the 19th Century there were 3 distinct kinds of Buffalo Hunters.
 Hide hunters
Robe hunters
Meat hunters
 Robe and meat hunters were much more discriminating in there take and often engaged at short ranges or even from horse back as mature bulls are vitally worthless for meat or robes.
 Cheers
Pawnee Bill

[Delmonico]

I am guilty of it and know better, the hide hunters have always interested me the most, I've read accounts where shortened double barreled muzzle-loading shotguns were often used from horse back with round ball, as well as the 54 caliber Springfield single-shot pistols and well as Colt Dragoons.

[Will Ketchum]

When the NCOWS Buffalo matches are announced the registration forms have the rules.  If I remember correctly they are that the guns must be of the type normally found on the Killing grounds during the peak of the great buffalo hunt.  The cartridges must be loaded with only real black powder, no substitutes or duplex loads.   Guns like the Winchester Hi-wall were too late for the hunt as were the Borchardt (spl?) Sharps.

This is from my memory I am sure there are more and someone who actually shoots these matches is more likely to have better information.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Since the Borchart cam out in 1878 I think it is the lack of a hammer that nixes it.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Will, do you mean the matches held only at Ackley or the local yokel Buffalo LR matches? At my local match no one fires BP except me if I show up, which I think is just downright sad. You cannot have the same experience with smokekess or a sub for that matter as with real BP and it is NOT a level playing field.

[Will Ketchum]

The ones I have been to have been at the Ackley Prairie Fire Range.  But I would think that any match that called itself a NCOWS Buffalo match would follow the rules set down years ago.  But heck I nevr shoot the matches so really have no dog in the fight.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Since we all know real black powder is more accurate in the catridges designed for it, why would you worry about someone who handicaps themselves?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Del, the 45-70 can be super accurate w/ smokeless loads + no wiping nor blow tubing needed. Just load 'em up as fast as you can shoot 'em. That's why.

[Delmonico]

I put 30 some rounds on a small paper desert plate one day as fast as I could load at 250, no wiping, no blow tupe, only stopped because of the heat in the barrel.  Finished in the middle of the pack a few years ago in the state game, benchrest at 200, against the Nitro guys, 20 rounds plus sighters in 30 minutes, my tang sights against their opticals, just for fun of course.  Guess I'll have to take some time away from the cooking someday and just play again.

[tarheel mac]

In "Pat Garrett" by Metz, he refers to Garrett using a '76 on the range...and using it to kill another hunter or skinner....so I guess the 1876 was used...but I think I would rather rely on a Sharps or a Remington....

[Grapeshot]

Although most references do tend to focus on the hide hunter and his Single Shot, big bore rifle, there are reports that some hide hunters were left high and dry when attacked by indians as they were not able to keep up a sustained rate of fire to drive them off.

The long range, single shot weapon in the hands of one man may have accounted for the majority of Buffalo killed, but buffalo don't shoot back.

Even armed with a Winchester 1876 in .45-75 or .45-60 would make a better defensive weapon than the Sharps, Trapdoor Springfield or Remington let alone the various .58 caliber muzzleloading rifles that were in use.

So without any references to guide me, I'd have to say that common sense would have compelled the hide hunter that it would be in his best interest to have atleast one big bore lever gund and a few smaller sized Winchesters to make sure he was able to keep his hides as well as his scalp.