".45 Dragoon"?

[TIZWIN]

Hello to my new pards here.  Another question from the new guy.  I recently got an R&D cartridge conversion cylinder that fits both my Colt 2nd Gen. 1st Model Dragoon and my Uberti/Cimarron Whitneyville/Hartford Dragoon.  Of course, it's chambered for .45 Colt.  I haven't shot it yet, but I've been musing on this idea.  Please bear with my ignorance.  Do any of you boys think it would be possible to load up .454 Casull brass with black powder and fire it in this gun?  I don't have any Casull brass, but the chambers in the cylinder look like they might accomodate a longer cartridge.  The reason would be, if it were possible, to obtain a greater powder capacity.  Perhaps 45-55 grains instead of the 30-35 grains most .45 Colt brass will hold. 

What do you think?  Is it possible?  Seems a shame to limit these big horse pistols to puny 35 grain charges when the originals would hold up to 50.  Of course, the size of the bullet would be a limiting factor as well.   And it goes without saying that smokleless propellants would be nowhere around.

If it worked, we might have a new black powder cartridge that could be called the ".45 Dragoon."

Or maybe I'm nuts.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, TIZWIN !

Nah, yer not nuts. 

However, I'd strongly advise against shooting any caliber more powerful than what it's chambered for.  It might actually fit and there's a chance that it would do just fine IF you only used BP, but if anything happened at a match and someone got hurt, you'd be wide open for a lawsuit.  And perhaps even worse, you'd be feelin' pretty bad about causing harm to one of your new cowboy shooter friends.

50 gr of "loose powder" pushing a 140gr (or thereabouts) roundball or even one of the 200gr (or so) conicals won't develop the kind of pressures you're talkin' about in a 454 Casull case.  It has to do with compression and the cavity being filled with powder.

Nothing says you can't make a dummy bullet, however, out of a 454 C case and a bullet to satisfy your curiosity.  Just fill the case with sand, grits, used cleaning media, or something besides powder.  Personally, I doubt you'd be able to chamber it, but that's just my opinion.

[TIZWIN]

Of course, I would never try it at a match.  It's more of an academic question.  I have only a little experience reloading, and none at all (yet) in blackpowder cartridge reloading.  I didn't consider the compression issue.

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[Silver Creek Slim]

The .454 Casull case will fit into a .45 Colt cylinder because the .454 is an enlongated .45 Colt case. The .454 was made longer so that it would not chamber in a .45 Colt and blow it up.

If ya compress the snot out of yer BP ya can get very close to 40 grs under a 250 gr boolit. BTW, are ya using FFg or FFFg? FFFg will give ya higher velocity.

Slim

[Cuts Crooked]

Have you ever touched off a full load of BP in a .45 Colt round? If not, yer in fer a surprize it will feel about as stout as a chamber full of 3f in the C&B cylinder in that Dragoon!

[hellgate]

As has been said, a full 45LC case loaded w/BP is impressive. So much so that the army reduced the service charge to 30-35 grs because it bothered the troopers. The original load for the 45LC was based on the Dragoon load of 40grs powder in a roomier balloon head case. Try loading an empty case (LC) with a bullet seated out farther to where the lead touches the forcing cone/end of the chamber. I am assuming there is a step in the chamber to limit the length of the chamber. You may find that you can get an excessive over all length (OAL) cartridge into the cylinder that will hold more powder. I would go light on lead. Try to stick with 200grs or less as the gun is an 1851 Design and the wedge will crush (leading to excess cylinder gap) or worse yet, the cylinder pin cutout will stretch and the gun could be ruined. In my Walkers, I use 44grs FFg with the .454 ball. When I used 50grs FFFg in one match I ruined two wedges and got off lucky. Don't push it, a bunch of the original Walkers blew up so Colt redesigned (cut down) the Walker and came out with the Dragoons that used "only" 40grs powder instead of 50 or 60. No point in repeating history here.

[El Paso Pete]

What do you think?  Is it possible?  Seems a shame to limit these big horse pistols to puny 35 grain charges when the originals would hold up to 50.  Of course, the size of the bullet would be a limiting factor as well.   And it goes without saying that smokleless propellants would be nowhere around.

Or maybe I'm nuts.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.

Been there, done that, and added my contribution to the Rowdy Yates retirement fund.

The hand held howitzers strength comes from the base pin.  My warthog loads pulled it loose a just bit.  Rowdy was more than happy ta fix it fer me fer around $130 + shippin. ;D 


Quote from Hellgates' post
"No point in repeating history here."

Unless, Your thinkin old Rowdy is needin a nicer place in the south of France than EPP's warthog loads can buy 'im.

[44caliberkid]

A-www, let's not pussy foot around, through bore that cylinder and load 'er up with warthog .460 S&W brass, hate to see that long cylinder go to waste.  NO! NO!  I'm just kiddin', really!

[Troublesome River]

It's possible, but I also would not advise it. Even though thr cylinder on the Dragoon can hold up to 50 grains of loose powder (60 on the Walker) the old Colt instruction for that time specified a maximum charge of 50 grains max  in the Walker and 40 grains max in the Dragoon. My guess is that this may have been part of the cause of these guns having a reputation for blowing up every so often. Granted, that todays metals are a lot stronger than back then, but whyt take the chance.

[Dick Dastardly]

If ya want to tease the dragon, give the Ruger Old Army a look see.  It's basically a Super Blackhawk for strength.  I have Kirst Konverter cylinders for mine in 45 Colt.  A full compressed charge of FFFg under a 250 grain Big Lube™ PRS bullet makes a considerable boom.  Sam'l Remington won't recommend it, but there are some very strong 45 Colt loads out there loaded with heathen powder that have been shot in the ROA/Kirst rig.

For myself, I'm content with 40 grains of FFFg behind the Big Lube™ J/P 45-200 bullet.  With that bullet I kin get a tight compressed load of 40 grains in and it really bucks, roars and snorts.

DD-DLoS