Mimimum Velocity Limit

[Ornery Orr]

In response to Frog69's post, I'm going to give a scenario for my wanting knockdown targets in NCOWS.  You're on the streets of Dodge City, 5 hombres come out of the bank with a load of money.  They see you with your shiny S.A.S.S. or N.C.O.W.S. badge boldly pinned to your suspenders for all the world to see.  They perceive you as a threat.  You know you can't afford to do a double tap starting from the left, cause the dude on the right is drawing a bead on you at this moment.  You opt for a sweep from Right to Left.  You start in on 'em.  Blam!, Blam!, Blam!, Blam!, Blam!  All targets are DOWN!  No one to put a slug in you since you fired your 5 shots. 
  I'm all for historically honoring the times gone by, but lets have the mindset that back in the day, given the scenarios that we're given, these "fun little shoots" that we do would have been a matter of life and death. 
 I still believe that if you make the targets knockdowns, the "gamers" will have no choice but to shoot heavier loads.
There are guns and calibers made for plinking and then there are guns and calibers for getting the work done.  Let's get to work!!

[Frog69]

Keeping with the more common occurrences for the 1800s You could also say....... Its cold things are bleak, you haven't eaten for days its middle of winter you feel as if your being watched suddenly there is a twig snap a vicious badger comes full bore at you .... you pull up your trusty 1892 marlin in 32 long colt and (balm blam)its no longer a threat and at the same time a rabbit darts out giving a chance to do what you are there for (blam blam)you have food to help stay alive one more day in the harsh winter
Now that's Real life or death..... As For velocity  Question, This like many other things NCOWS opens up we have to realize that to make NCOWS reflect real life and or history has way to many variables to have to deal with. 1st NCOWS needs to redefine its self and then
Make the rules very specific to eliminate the gray areas, that's if you want it a sport. If you want it to be history then be prepared to leave the door open and let it strictly be for the fun and let its members learn from one an other forget about it being competitive ..... just some more thoughts

[Wymore Wrangler]

Joss, most posses around here have their own unique badges....

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[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Double O"
You got my vote, I think it's a damn good idea!!....., While we're at it lets have a minimum distance for the target set-ups too, say a minimum of 15 yds. for revolver and 30 for rifle, with varying degrees of height and spaces between them......

OCB

[Ornery Orr]

I'm all for it OCB.  This past year, I shot with the S.A.S.S. group here in Glenwood, IA. It's a lot like shooting an NCOWS match because almost everybody that shoots there also shoots at NTR with us and do a good job of being period in their clothing and accoutrements.  Anyway, they had some bonus rifle targets that were set up out there quite a ways.  I'm fairly fast with the rifle and it definitely made me slow down and take careful aim.  You could tell who was shooting light loads also since the bullets were dropping too much and they couldn't reach the targets hardly. 

[Books OToole]

How about a bonus for knocking a specific target down?

If you hit istwith your light caliber or mouse fart load, you get the normal score.  If you knock it ass over tea kettle you get a 25 point bonus.

Of course the gamers will have one hot round;  but somebody will always game it no matter what you do.

Books

[Lars]

Combining more difficult to hit targets with bonuses is an excellent way to add some real shooting challanges. These can be small targets, distant targets, moving targets, clean sweeps of knockdowns, etc, etc. Your imagination and available targets are the only real limits.

I am solidly with those that wish to place ALL targets some decent distance away, at least at the distances posted by OCB.

Lars

[44caliberkid]

In the olden days of IPSC, we used to use a ballistic pendellum.  It was a steel plate that swung, like a pendullum, with a marking point at the top that indicated the amount of swing.  Before or after the match, we draw a random round of your ammo and shoot the pendellum.  It has to move a specified amount to be considered legal ammo.  No electronics, simple to make, fast to do.

[Ol Gabe]

Just for the sake of discussion...
I seem to recall a jaw-fest awhile back wherein one Pard said the minimum and maximum velocities were printed in the Tally Book that every member gets on signing up. Can't locate mine right now but if I recall correctly he was saying that the low end figure was around 850 fps or so and the upper end around 1,000 fps, probably wrong on both, but at any rate, the present By-Laws state the following:
9-2.  Smokeless powder loads shall not exceed the maximum muzzle velocities of comparable black powder loads, (e.g.: 1500 fps for single-shot cartridge rifles; 1300 fps for lever action rifles; 1000fps for handguns).  Smokeless loads may be chronographed and certified by the Judge before the shooter will be allowed to compete.

9-3.  The Territorial Congress, in conjunction with the Authenticity Committee and Executive Committee, shall establish and maintain official  NCOWS Rules and Regulations to govern approved firearms, calibers, and load, and  clothing and accouterments, and range rules and regulations.

Couldn't find a 'minimum' listed in the By-Laws but perhaps one of the Waddies has a Tally Book close at hand and can verify what is written therein. Needless to say, 1,000 fps is enough to satisfy the desire to 'Bang & Clang' of most all CAS folks, however close-in or far-out the targets are positioned.
It should probably follow that smaller caliber handguns such as Pocket Pistols or Derringers in .22, .32 & .38 S&W and other smaller calibers obviously won't fall into the same fps parameters as a 44-40 or 45LC, this is a given due to the simple nature of the product specifications. This should require a specific placement of the target allowing a degree of competence from the Shooter to hit the target and a bit of a challenge as well, i.e., for smaller calibers 4' away may be too close in some cases and 10' may be too far in others. Although some 'feel' that a short-bbl'd 44-40 or 45LC may fall into the Pocket Pistol category because it fits 'into' their Pocket, it can be considered overkill by others, this has been discussed and many fine example pics presented by our knowledgable cadre of posters.
Target placement for larger calibers should ideally be such to provide a common sense approach to safety, a challenge to the Shooter and be visually appealing to all participants.
44Caliberkid's suggestion of a swing pendulum tester is a very doable solution and should be proposed and started ASAP at all NCOWS Official venues. If a registered Shooters loads don't pass the 'Swing Test' they get moved to the Low Power Shooters Category, there will be no wavering, your cartridges hit and move to the prescribe mark or they don't, one way or the other. Those that feel they have to shoot low power loads for whatever reason should be honest and forthright enough to tell the Match Director what they are using and then only compete in an honest and forthright manner against others that do so, for after all, if it is only a competitive edge they seek by utilizing low power loads then they should be honest and manly enough to shoot only with those that can compete equally against them, right? There is nothing wrong in what they are doing as long as it is safe and sequestered, a group of LPS'ers/Low Powered Shooters can easily be scored as well as any others, simply put all 10 targets in one scenario at 5'-10' and let them Nevada Sweep, Samson Sweep, Missouri Sweep, Texas Sweep, Double Tap, Tripple Tap, L-R, R-L then back again. After 5 boxes of Low Powered reloads are expended, all hits scored and the guns put away, the winner can be announced, it won't take much time, they should be done before 10:00 so the rest of the Posses can shoot at leisure. Who knows, what with Maj. Matt's recent conceptualization of a NCOWS Natl. Champion, we might even end up with a National Champion in a LPS category, wouldn't be much glory but then the prize wouldn't be much either, just a simple small faded Pink Feather to go in the hatband on his Gus Crease Hat.
To fulfill what NCOWS proffers, make the target placement challenging, match them to each scenario, simple L-R sweeps don't provide anything for the historical end of the event, make it right the first time and they'll come back the next!
Best regards and good shooting, whatever it is you shoot with or at!
'Ol Gabe

[Frog69]

So in reality we are not talking about velocity. We are truly talking about Knock down Power or shock displacement???

[Ol Gabe]

Good observation Frog.
In a 'perfect' world of NCOWS/CAS shooting I should think that would be a given. However, we don't live or participate in a perfect NCOWS/CAS world, so if the Low Power Load, read low velocity, can't get to the target and can't knock it down or clang it with appropriate force, then the shooter of that load should be encouraged and allowed to only participate, as mentioned above, with other shooters that feel, for whatever reason, they must load light.
Now, of course various and sundry scenarios will require a Pocket Pistol as part of the 'story', hoepfully it wil be written with some historical propensity to give the Shooter a reason to shoot it, otherwise it is simply an opportunity to bring everything you have to shoot at everything there is, and that is a generalization of the reality of many events. There is nothing wrong in that idea as it gives many Shooters a chance to use all of what they own in a fun and enjoyable environment, but if it is to be an NCOWS event of an historical bent then the scenarios should be writtten as-such and Pocket Pistols would have a limited storyline. However, if the scenarios are written for the Ladies, they might have a higher recognition factor as more Ladies probably used them in defense or for any number of reasons more than the higher caliber armaments, so research should be done prior to writing a historical stage and then with the Gender in mind. Yes, Ladies shoot all the stages presently, and no it doesn't mean they have to shoot only 'Ladies' scenarios. If it is only a 'Fun Shoot' then by all means use everything from Pocket Pistols to Big Bores, but limit the usage of Low Power Loads as the velocity and potential knock-down or sound recognition factor is almost nil.
Let us take a Buff Shoot for example, if Shooter A uses a .32 RB, he will only get the faintest of dings on a Buff target at 100 yards, it will be almost indistinguishable at 150 and unheard farther out except to his own aural perception, i.e. he thinks he hit them but nobody else heard it, he stands by his aural hits and claims 20 out of 25. None are knocked over. Shooter B uses a 45-90 and dumps 20 out of 25, all are visual dumps and the clangs are heard by all. OK, who is scored with 20 out of 25, A or B?
Granted the example is skewed but it offers a different although quite similar perception as those that use .32 or .38 Low Power Loads on the regular stages, it may hit and ding but it don't go down.
Now I'm all for using Low Power Loads or .22s or .32s or .38s for practice, they are inexpensive and give the Shooter a strong and positive feeling of success and self improvement when many hits are scored, but for realistic NCOWS participation regulation loads and calibers need to be used and enforced.
Best regards and good loading!
'Ol Gabe

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy 'Ol Gabe,

Your comment about ladies and pocket pistols brings to mind the "Glittering Ornament" side match at the Nationals at Ackley this year.  Put on by the KVC, it required the lady to have a revolver or derringer that would fit in a reticule or muff.  The target consisted of Heartless Bastard and his hussy.  Since he was heartless, shots in his heart were misses.  In the family jewels got extra points!   Just ask Kayleen if she had fun.  Books and Trap put it all together and can provide more details.

Thanks for bringing back happy memories!

[Pit Mule]

Greetings all,
Back in the 1997 May/June issue of The Shootist then Judge Vaugn Trueman published the minimum velocities for for that years NCOWS National Shoot. For information purposes I'll post that article here for reference.

Minimum Velocities Set

"Judge Vaughn Trueman has established a list of minimum smokeless powder velocities for this year's Showdown on the Prairie, in an attempt to address some of the problems associated with the dangers of so-called "squib" loads.While it's still a good idea to use a smokeless powder that will fill up the case to at least 50% of capacity, establishing minimum velocities will allay some of the concerns. Vaughn went through as many loading manuals as he could and compiled a list of "average" minimum velocities for each caliber.
Not every load will be tested, but if there is any question, particularly if the shooter in question is in the top three shooters for any given stage, the load in question may be chronographed, and if it falls below the minimum established, the shooter will be disqualified. Minimum velocities are listed for various bullet weights by caliber:"

32 S&W
77 gr.478 fps
84 gr 468 fps

.32 S&W Long
77 gr. 513 fps
 95 gr. 518 fps

.32-20 WCF
115 gr. 550 fps

.38 S&W
92 gr. 718 fps
121 gr. 560 fps
133 gr. 568 fps
141 gr. 510 fps

.38 Special
92 gr.  675 fps
121 gr. 647 fps
148 gr. 512 fps
158 gr. 564 fps
165 gr. 497 fps

.38-40 W
180 gr. 740 fps

.44 S&W Russian
215 gr. 525 fps
 246 gr. 505 fps

.44 S&W Special
205 gr. 550 fps
215 gr. 534 fps
245 gr. 609 fps
250 gr. 584 fps

.44-40 WCF
205 gr. 695 fps

.45 Schofield
185 gr. 435 fps
250 gr. 425 fps

.45 Colt
185 gr. 435 fps
250 gr. 505 fps
255 gr. 485 fps
435 fps 505 fps

These may need to be updated from 1997. I do like the 600 fps minimum.

Pit Mule

[Wymore Wrangler]

Thanks Tracy...  sounds like a good idea...

[Kayleen]

 Yes indeed I did have fun with the Glittering Ornament side match, Dr. Bob. I like the off the wall sort of shooting stuff. I enjoy shooting the pocket pistol in side matches as such.
  I set shoots up that way also.
Expect the unexpecteed.
Kayleen

[Chantilly]

Here's some thoughts from Shoot'n Newton to keep in mind when talking about minimum velocities-

Velocity by bullet weight without consideration of the bullet type is an incomplete picture.  A different design bullet in the same weight will react differently with different loads.  Shooters need to realize that when they work up a load according to the book, they need to test it for consistency and accuracy.  Otherwise, it could end up being an unreliable load.  I wouldn't be caught dead shooting anything much under 800 fps simply for consistency and accuracy.  If NCOWS wants a minimum velocity, it should be based on safety sake and not because of competition.  In my opinion, the 600 fps is too low.

The clang factor really has more to do with the size of the bullet than the velocity - a 220 gr 45 bullet will have a louder clang than a 92 gr 38 at the same velocity. 

If NCOWS is wanting to categorize shooters differently, perhaps sub-categorizing small bore vs large bore within each existing category could be considered. 

[Major Matt Lewis]

Now, I don't have a dog in this fight.  All of my stuff falls within mimimum safety standards recommended by the powder company.  I know that they go a little heavy so you will use more of their powder....That's right, even those big .45 LC Scout was using at the GAF Muster had 4.5 Grains of Clays on a 200 Grain Bullet.  My .38 Special loads are 3.0 grains of Clays on a .125 grain or .158 grain round.  So, all of my stuff has enough zip on it to reach at least 600 FPS.....Yes Trap, they really do...

I have also gotten into the habit of loading a little heavy.  Another shooter loaded me up some rounds for a shooting school I went to and there was about 10 squibs in the mix.  This was 1.5 years ago.  Very distracting....

I see the issue in enforcement.  As Books originally pointed out, this is not a short stroke where a semi-skilled eye could see it.  Each club or event would have to buy a chronograph.  Not sure how much that would run.  They would also have to take the time to test everybodies loads.  Not real fair to test only "suspects."  I would think that you would want to do it before the main match as well.  This will give someone time to "correct" themselves after an entry fee has been accepted.  So, I say if you're going to to it, everybody should have to do it, not just winners or suspects....

Now as to minimum target distance, the only reason why I would say I am against that, is that it takes match design away from the discretion of the Match Director.  For instance, at the GAF Shoot, the funnest stage was the one with even the rifle targets less than 5 yards away and you had 25 seconds to complete the course of fire or you were "killed."  Everybody loved it and it definately was not a "SASS" stage.

I reckon the distance between targets is something that can be governed by the range itself...I got no issue with the targets not being close and bunched up.  Anybody who was at either of the GAF Musters I ran knows that.

[Cuts Crooked]

Chronographs are prety cheap these days, they can be had for under a C note. And I'm always willing to make the loan of mine at any match I attend.

Regarding checking ammo: I see no problem in checking only those whos loads appear suspect! Fair or not, it gets to the meat of the matter..period. And if someone is asked to provide a shell or two they shouldn't have any problem with being asked! I certainly wouldn't! And if my loads didn't make the grade I would happily withdraw from competition and ask if I could help out with the match in some other way. And to be very frank, anyone who would "pitch a hissy" because everyone wasn't "clocked" is someone I'd rather not be shooting with anyway!

Simplest way to deal with it is tell shooters right up front that they may be asked for an ammo sample at any given time during the match! That way they know and can make their own descision as to whether or not they want to participate beforehand. But it is simply not nessessary to take a shell from every competitor and check it. Indeed it would be too easy to circumvent the whole testing proceedure that way, by having a cache of "test ammo"!

regardless, this is all jist supposition right now!

[Arcey]

Not quite, Cuts.

If you really wanna know, ya pull 'em off the table after they've loaded.  When they think they're ready to shoot the stage.

Have 'em empty their rifle, take 'em to the graph and have 'em put all ten from both pistols across the screens.

..

[Lone Gunman]

Not real fair to test only "suspects." 

Life isn't fair, a fair is where old men go to see hogs judged.

Seriously though, testing the 'non-suspects' would make as much sense as strip searching 90 year old grannies at the airport