"Wild Bunch" North

[PJ Hardtack]

I came to CAS as an IPSC burn out, fed up with the gamesmanship and all-out equipment race. I was a Cooper devotee and it was optical sights and 'impractical' practical holsters that drove me away. CAS was a refreshing change - at the time.

It was a one-gun game, usually .44 or .45; people looked a little askance at you if you shot a .38 pistol or rifle, like you were a little light in your Lamas. Loads were warm and bullet weights were traditional for the calibre - 200 gr 44-40, 250 .45 Colt.
Emphasis was on how well you could shoot at challenging targets.

Things in life caused a hiatus from the sport, and when I came back, it was a two-gun game, the .38 Spl. was King (thanks to 'China Camp' and his wife) and speed was everything, targets now on the large size to accomodate the new regime.
It was now IPSC in Cowboy Boots! I let my SASS and WCFSS memberships lapse.

Now with the advent of the "Wild Bunch" match, I could get interested - but, I still resent the powers that be in a foreign, alien country tell me what guns I can play with. What's wrong with the guns of the British Empire?

So, I'm thinking ..... about a Canuck version allowing ANY turn-of-the-century pistol and I'd allow SXS shotguns as well as '97s. How 'British' is that? Pistols would include turn-of-the-century guns like the Colt and Brit DAs, Lugers, etc. Ammo would be restricted to lead bullets. Period dress mandatory.

I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but since it has become so onerous for Canadians to take guns south of the border, we may as well come up with our own game.

Anyone got a suggestion or comment .....

[Range Gypsy]

PJ,

Here in Nova Scotia we are starting to get the wild bunch thing off the ground. We are trying to follow SASS rules. We went this route for various reasons.  There is already a rule book to help answer the questions of beginners. And if you were to travel to a match elsewhere you will be prepared if you are playing the same game by the same rules at home. No surprises.
I am not going to argue that you can not come up with your own game , That's cool too . This is just the way we went.

Range Gypsy

[PJ Hardtack]

Range Gypsy

Yep, makes a lot of sense. However, unless one intends to attend US shoots, adhering to SASS rules excludes a lot of good guns at a time when we need to be more inclusive rather than exclusive. I live 10 hours from Vancouver and a ferry ride to Vancouver Island if I want to shoot in Victoria, BC. If I go to a US shoot, even further. I'd rather shoot at home and not be lost in a crowd.

I've got a nice Webley MK VI in .455, an even better quality Tranter in .450, a Colt NS in .455 as well as two 1911s in .45 ACP. It isn't a case of lacking the SASS eligible guns, as between myself and my wife, we cover all bases in three calibres - cartridge as well as cap & ball.

Our club follows SASS safety rules and more or less their gun rules, but I sense a bit of rebelliousness. "Wild Bunch North" gives the guys with Broomhandle Mausers, Lugers and other turn-of-the-century guns a chance to play.
I shot a stage recently with a 1911 (5 rds in the mags, hammer down on empty chamber) against the SA guys, and I had no advantage. I was bucking .45 hardball-equivalent 230 gr RN recoil compared to low recoil loads.

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[Garand]

In Medicine Hat, we have 2 classes for Wild Bunch

Traditional

1x1911, 2x Mags, 1 Handed Only, 1x Winchester M1897, 1x Lever Action Carbine (as per SASS Rules)


OPEN CLASS

1x revolver, 1x1911, 1x Mag,(or 1x1911, 2x mags), 1 or 2Handed , 1x Winchester M1897or Double Barrel Shotgun, 1x Lever Action Carbine (any calibre)(This configuration is not SASS sanctioned)


This way everyone can play.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Todd:

Your concept is similar to the "Era of Expansion" side match category in the Grand Army of the Frontier, which basically allows the use of all firearms from the period of roughly 1900-1916 (and earlier, of course.) Additionally, they permit "main battle rifles" in addition to pistol-caliber rifles .... so one can have fun with the actual military-issue rifles of the day .....  (They do, however, specifically preclude kit commonly associated with the Great War .... such as steel helmets, gas masks and such .....)

At the 2011 National Muster i have just returned from, I competed in the Era of Expansion match in Boer War Canadian Mounted Rifles kit, complete with Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle. (There was no shotgun used this year, although it has been included in the past .....)

[PJ Hardtack]

Grant - outstanding!  Great kit and guns. What pistol were you packing?

Yes, I like the "Age of Expansion" concept. I was bored with the SASS Colt SAA genre of things YEARS ago. I do remember Gary Kangas once trying to promote a class wherein you needed a single shot ML rifle, qiuite common in our frontier history. That died still born, along with the now defunct WCFSS (best EVER name for a CAS group!), allowed to die by the Sass-enachs that inherited the mantle from him.
I designed a stage for our annual match this year where the shootist was holding one of my P-H Muskettons at High Port as a sentry. The target was a steel cowboy sil at 25 yards ( I had planned for 50, but we relocated the stage) and it was a popular way to start a stage. Kept me busy reloading between shooters with Minies, but we'll be doing it again. Perhaps next time we'll use my Gallagher carbine ....
Maybe it's just the rebel in me, but I really resent exclusivity in shooting sports as opposed to inclusivity. It leads to elitism and that drives people away.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

In Victoria, Wild Bunch is divided in three classes. The two regular SASS classes and "OUTLAW" for all others.  Outlaw class shotgun does not extend to Autos, but other than that, come on out, run what cha brung, and have fun. Outlaws only compete against each other.

[Garand]

Grant, how far north of Texas can you find these "Age of Expansion" matches. I have seen a couple on You tube and they look like a lot of fun.

[RattlesnakeJack]

The "Era of Expansion" match is a concept peculiar to the Grand Army of the Frontier, so it is likely only to be encountered at GAF matches.  So far, these tend to be concentrated in the South Central area of the US - although as far north as Illinois and - within "moderate" driving distance of Southern Alberta - Nebraska.  I have been specifically invited to attend the 2012 Departmental Muster of the GAF Department of the Missouri, to be held near Sargent NE on July 13, 14 & 15 next summer, which will include an "Era of Expansion" component- http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39107.0.html - and will be doing my best to ensure that I can go.

As I have indicated in the past, the Grand Army of the Frontier is primarily centered in the US.   Its "Mission Statement" indicates that it encourages cowboy-action type shooting and re-enactment activities within the context of "the late Victorian-era military of all nations between 1858 and 1904, with a particular emphasis on American army on the Western Frontier between 1860 and 1900 ....."  Although there are members from various countries in the "Department of the International", so far I am the only "foreigner" to have shot in a Muster.  As Commander of that Department (and of the Division of Canada within it) I will gladly propose anyone who may be interested for membership!  (So far, there is no cost to belong .... nor any obligation to take part in specific organized GAF activities.)

For anyone who is interested, the GAF website is here - http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/
And rather than trying to summarize GAF rules and guidelines here, I'll just add these links:
- GAF Primary Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards - http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html
- GAF Primary MilSpec Handguns 1865-1901 - http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,28199.0.html
- GAF Muster guidelines - http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33665.0.html
- GAF "Era of Expansion" guidelines -  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33853.0.html

There would be nothing to prevent us from trying to introduce GAF-type shooting north of the Medicine Line - much as already suggested at the beginning of this thread by PJ Hardtack (Todd) - at least insofar as allowing any "period correct" handgun or shotgun.  One would simply have to specify the parameters of the allowable time-frame (e.g. ending in 1910 .... 1912 ..... 1914, or whatever.  GAF's Era of Expansion extends to 1916, but specifically excludes artidles of uniform and kit expressly associated with WWI trench warfare.).  

In keeping with GAF's policy of encouraging the use of actual "main battle rifles" in its shooting events, 'Age of Expansion" matches permit suitable "full-bore" military rifles as well .... limited to cast bullets and specified maximum velocities, of course.  Whether such rifles could be allowed up here would depend on various factors, including target placement.  (In our case, in Medicine Hat, that would preclude using our dedicated Cowboy Action Range, of course, since its bale-construction berms and backstops are approved solely for pistol-caliber firearms.)

Let's hear any expressions of interest in getting GAF-type shoots going on this side of the Medicine Line!

Here is one YouTube video taken last year at the Department of the Missouri Muster, in the same Nebraska location as their 2012 Departmental Muster will be held.  The first shooter is "Ned Niederlander" (a Nebraska State Trooper in "real life") and the second is "Drydock".  The "skirmish" format seen here is becoming quite popular.  It can also be adapted to a certain extent to more traditional ranges, with such forward or backward movement as may be appropriate for the facilities.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYp6_FgLOc[/youtube]

[PJ Hardtack]

Really enjoyed the video! "Ned" and "Drydock" can really handle their rifles. "Drydock's" problem with his pistol showed just what can happen when you least want it.

Jeff cooper used to advocate a similar course of fire with tactical/hunting rifles. We did it for years in IPSC 'Practical Rifle' matches on "Jungle Trails" using full power loads. I recall the consternation of .223 shooters when their little bullets were deflected by twigs, missing the IPSC silhouettes just yards away.
The guys with the mausers, Garands, SMLEs, Springfields shot right thru' 4" trees, hitting their targets! Bullets didn't even key hole.