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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks  |  GAF Regulations (Moderator: Pitspitr)  |  Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards  (Read 52409 times)
Drydock
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« on: October 15, 2007, 09:24:35 pm »


These are meant to be GAF classes at a GAF only match, like a regional or National Muster. GAF classes are Rifle based, not handgun as per SASS and NCOWs.

 Note that handguns will not be cycled with the off hand.  Exemptions may be granted on a case by case basis, but unless such an exemption has been granted, cycling the handgun with the off hand will result in a Points penalty for anachronistic practice.

 Unless specified otherwise, these are 2 gun classes, with the indicated longarm and the period appropriate GAF approved sidearm.

 Ammunition load per stage/run shall be no more than 60 rounds rifle, 20 rounds handgun.  1 gun classes may carry 80 rounds.

MILSPEC REPEATERS (Magazine rifles) shall be operated as designed: IE if your weapon was designed to use en bloc clips, or stripper clips, you may use them.   If it was designed to use loose ammunition, that is how it will be used.  No limited issue or experimental issue is allowed.  

For all other weapons, Handguns and longarms, no loading aids (Stripper Clips, moon clips, etc.) shall be used.  *EXEMPTION*  Due to safety considerations inherient in the design, those wishing to use a C96 Mauser (Broomhandle) are allowed the use of stripper clips.  

Spencer shooters may use a Blakeslee if desired.  The GAF considers the Blakeslee a mode of conveyance, not a loading aid.  

Much of this is based on the concepts as put forth in the "Battle Rifle" standards.  THese are all 2 gun (rifle and pistol) unless specificaly stated.  Please review the "Battle Rifle" entry.  (See below)

 Handguns shall be Milspec, or of demonstrated military usage, related in period to the rifle used.  "Period" shall be defined as related to the adoption date of the rifle. "Scout" classes are restricted to Single Action Revolvers.

Those wishing to use C&Bs may use 2 revolvers, charged and capped with 5 rounds each, carried in appropriate holsters.  Targets not hit by these 10 rounds shall be made up with the longarm.

All Calibers in the Milspec class will be milspec, with case by case exemptions granted.  (Example: a properly outfitted Winchester 95 carbine in .30-06 may be accepted in liu of the Milspec .30 US caliber)

All calibers will be loaded to CAS spec.  Rifle calibers will be all lead, no more than 405 grains lead at no more than 1500 FPS. Calibers greater than .501 may use up to a 480 grain bullet. Gas checks may be used at the Match directors discretion on rifle calibers of .32 or less.  (Call Ahead!)  Hangun calibers all lead at no more than 1200 fps.  Further requirements for minimum pistol loadings are under discussion and may be implemented should need be.

Handgun Calibers in "Scout" classes ( Scout, Buffalo Scout and Forager Scout) will have a minmum bore diameter of .357. All Non Milspec handguns shall have a minimum bore diameter of .357.

A "Repeater" is any magazine fed weapon.

Milspec rifles shall be classed by year and powder used, with powder being the final determinator.  Pre 1886 rifles are black powder rifles.  However, should you desire to use smokeless powder in a pre 1886 rifle, you will be scored in the post 1886 class.  A post 1886 rifle may NOT be loaded with black powder.  Transitional rifles shall be evaluated on a case by case basis.  (The Lee Metford M1888 with single stack 8 round magazine and NO clip feed would be such a rifle)  The determining date is the initial adoption date of the rifle design.  (IE, all Trapdoor rifles are considered 1873 design rifles)

Let me repeat: If you use smokeless powder, you will be scored as a smokeless rifle, regardless of design year.  If you wish to compete only against other BP designs, you must use Black powder, or appropriate substitute.  Having said that, we have not found a well managed single shot to be at much if any disadvantage in the Skirmish Format.

1-MILITARY, SMOKELESS {MS} - Post 1886. (Date shall be the initial adoption date of the design)
2-MILITARY, BLACK POWDER {MB} - Pre 1886.  (Those desiring to use smokeless powder in pre 1886 designs will be scored in the post 1886 class)

3-MILITARY RIFLEMAN SMOKELESS {MRS} - Rifle only (Post 1886)
4-MILITARY RIFLEMAN BLACK POWDER {MRB} - Rifle only (Pre 1886)

5-MILITARY HANDGUNNER {MH} - Pistol only.  Black Powder / Smokeless

6-MILITIA {CM} - Civilian repeaters, rifle calibers. Any GAF approved handgun. Black powder/smokeless

7-SCOUT{CS} - Civilian repeater, pistol calibers, single action revolvers. Black powder/smokeless

8-BUFFALO {CB} - Era Single shot hunting rifles (no ejectors), single action revolver. Black powder/smokeless

9-FORAGER {CF} - Single shot (ejectors allowed) double barrel (No ejectors) or lever action shotgun, single action revolver. (Bummer class!)  Target engagement as per the Match Director.  Shot size by local regulation. Black powder/smokeless

Note we often refer to hanguns, not single action revolvers.  It means just that.  That they should be related in PERIOD to the rifle used in the Milspec classes gives a great deal of flexibility.  MILITARY classes will be shot in accordance with Battle Rifle Standards


Classes MAY be combined at the Match directors discretion should numbers warrant.  Appropriate classes shall be divided by powder type should numbers warrant

You may PM me with any questions.  Drydock

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milspec/Battle Rifle Standards.


 This is a set of standards for the use of these type weapons in a GAF match, outside of the usual Cowboy style classes.  This may be broken up by action or powder type at the descretion of the Match director.  

-Milspec weapons of the late Victorian era, 1865-1900

-RIfles will be MAIN BATTLE RIFLES and CARBINES, utilizing CAS spec ammunition.  Lead bullets of weight no more than 405 grains, velocity less than 1500 FPS. Calilbers greater than .501 may use up to a 480 grain bullet. Rifle calibers of .32 or less may use gas checks at the match directors discretion.  (Call ahead!)  Examples would be, but not limited to: Krags, Spencers, Trapdoors, Sniders, Enfields, early Mausers. Handguns would be milspec, or of demonstrated military use, related in period to the rifle used.  The rifle is the determing factor here.

-NOTE-  Handguns are related IN PERIOD to the rifle used.  It is understood that some handgun/rifle combinations may be difficult to impossible to achieve.  Reasonable substitutions are allowed.  Officers of the period often purchased their own sidearms.  (Notice I say "Handguns"?  Thats right.  Broomhandle fanatics rejoice!  For you DA revolver types, no loading aids of any type.) When in doubt, a single action revolver will always be acceptable.

-Rifles/carbines must be in a military configuration, military caliber.  Example:  the 1895 Winchester is allowed, if in military configuration, chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag) Lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are specificaly not allowed.  There will be other classes for them.

(reasonable caliber subsitiution may be allowed on a case by case basis.)

-Dress should attempt to be military, matching the weapon used.  Please don't show up dressed for the Rough Riders carrying a Mauser.  Full or partial uniforms are fine, Scouts, field expediencey, irregulars and "Hollywood" are recognized. (caveat:  you want to be an irregular, you might want to have some provenance that shows you to be a fair representation.)  Ladies may adhere to the above, or perhaps better to dress appropriate to the period, with some military "accessories".  Perhaps a Kepi, corded Slouch, or officers sash.  For ladies wishing to really go all out, I would suggest watching John Fords "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon".

BUT! You do not HAVE to have a uniform.  It is encouraged, and is used as a Qualifier for the Brigade Championship.  Boers fought in suits, Mexican revolutionaries in whatever they had.  Both those conflicts utilized about every weapon you can think of!

-Era single shots, ie trapdoors, Martini Henrys, Rolling blocks, are encouraged, loaded to spec.  Course of fire may be different from that of the repeaters at the match directors discretion.

-  EXCEPT WHERE NOTED, All reloads will be of loose ammo, from the person, from appropriate belts/pouchs/pockets, no aids of any kind.  Loading aids may be used to charge the weapon prior to stage start, but none will be used in the stage itself. *EXEMPTION* Due to safety considerations inherient in the design, C96 Mausers are allowed stripper clips.  Spencer shooters may use a Blakeslee if they so desire, as the GAF considers the Blakeslee a mode of conveyance, not a speed loader.

-MILSPEC REPEATERS (Magazine rifles) may be used as designed.  All other weapons are restricted to loose ammunition.

-Modifications allowed: None.  Springs may be replaced/lightened, existing parts polished to improve trigger pull, thats it.  Parts may be replaced only to repair/return to Milspec.

-Don't come to me about the Turks using 1866s at Plevna. Or the Henrys of the 1st DC. There are plenty  of other venues for those.  SASS, NCOWs, etc.  This is for Main Battle rifles.  Henrys and 66s were the submachine guns of their era. In the GAF classification system Lever action pistol caliber rifles are hereby restricted to Scout Class.  This does not mean you are a Scout.  It is simply the name of the class.


EXAMPLES OF ACCEPTABLE RIFLES.

Not final, research ongoing. South American variations on the Comblain are endless!  Where not mentioned, it is expected that these will be in military configuration.  Please submit weapon suggestions by PM for evaluation.  If it was accepted for military service prior to 1902 I'd like to know about it.  Weapons must use a self contained cartridge with integral primer.  IE no muzzleloaders, or breechloaders requiring a seperate percussion cap.

Milspec replicas, such as the various Trapdoor Springfield replicas from H&R and Pedersoli, are recognized.

CARCANO 1891 all models with adjustable sights

COMBLAIN-VARIOUS FROM 1870
 
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-ENFIELD (First, "Long" model.  NOT the SMLE)
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 1
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 1*
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 2
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 2*
ENFIELD     .303 MLM/MLE associated Carbines.

ENFIELD     .450 MARTINI-HENRY
ENFIELD     .577 SNIDER-ENFIELD RIFLE/CARBINE

FRENCH MILITARY     MODEL 1886 LEBEL
FRENCH MILITARY  "BERTHIER" CARBINE, early 3 round magazine models
FRENCH "CHASSPOTT"
GRAS     MODEL 1874 INFANTRY RIFLE AND CARBINE

SWISS VETTERLI M1867-71 M1878, M1881

ITALIAN VETTERLI M1870, M1870/78
 
DREYSE "NEEDLE GUN"
MAUSER     MODEL 1871 SHORT RIFLE
MAUSER 71
MAUSER  78/80
MAUSER 84
MAUSER  85
MAUSER  86
MAUSER  87
MAUSER  88
MAUSER  89
MAUSER  90
MAUSER  91
MAUSER  92
MAUSER  93
MAUSER  94
MAUSER  95
MAUSER  96
MAUSER 98 LONG INFANTRY VERSION.  NO "K" MODELS.

MANNLICHER M1886 "Straight Pull"
MANNLICHER M1888 "Commission"

STEYR M1895

MOSIN-NAGANT M1891
INFANTRY, DRAGOON AND COSSACK ("HEX" RECIEVER) any 91/30 with a "Hex" reciever is considered a Dragoon, and allowed.  Must be a straight grip stock.

RUSSIAN BERDAN SINGLE SHOT 1ST AND 2ND MODEL.

PEABODY 1871

REMINGTON     U.S. NAVY M1867 ROLLING BLOCK CARBINE
REMINGTON     REMINGTON KEENE MAGAZINE BOLT RIFLE
REMINGTON     REMINGTON LEE MAGAZINE BOLT RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. NAVY "ANNAPOLIS CADET" MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. ARMY MODEL 1870 "EXPERIMENTAL" CARBINE
REMINGTON     U.S. ARMY MODEL 1870 "EXPERIMENTAL" MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. NAVY MODEL 1870 (TYPES 1 & 2) MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. ARMY MODEL 1871 MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     ANY ROLLING BLOCK IN MILSPEC CONFIGURATION

SCHMIDT-RUBIN M1889, M1896, M1897, M1900
 
SHARPS     .50/70 CARBINES
SHARPS     .50/70 RIFLES
SHARPS     SPRINGFIELD/SHARPS MODEL 1870-1871
SHARPS     MODEL 1874
SHARPS     MODEL 1878 SHARPS-BORCHARDT

SNIDER     Various INFANTRY RIFLE/CARBINE

SPENCER     MODEL 1860 ARMY RIFLES
SPENCER     MODEL 1860 CARBINES
SPENCER     MODEL 1860 NAVY RIFLES
SPENCER     MODEL 1865 ARMY RIFLES
SPENCER     MODEL 1865 CARBINES
SPENCER     MODEL 1867 ARMY RIFLES AND CARBINES
SPENCER     NEW MODEL ARMY RIFLES AND CARBINES
SPENCER     SMALL-FRAME MILITARY CARBINES
SPENCER     SPRINGFIELD ARMORY RIFLE MUSKET CONVERSION OF SPENCER CARBINES

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1870 ROLLING-BLOCK RIFLE, U.S.N.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1871 ROLLING-BLOCK RIFLE, U.S.A.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODELS 1866, 1868 RIFLES
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1870 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1873 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1873 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1873 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1875 OFFICER?S RIFLE FIRST TYPE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1877 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1877 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1877 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1879 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1879 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1879 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1880
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1884 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1888 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     ARSENAL-ALTERED TO M1896 STYLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1892-DATED 1894
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1895 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1896
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1896 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1896 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1898 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1898 NRA CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1898 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1899 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1899 PHILIPPINE CONSTABULARY CARBINE

DANISH KRAG M1889
NORWIEGIAN KRAG M1894, 95, 97

WINCHESTER     HOTCHKISS RIFLE
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 NRA MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 RUSSIAN MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 CARBINE
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 FLATSIDE MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1883 (HOTCHKISS REPEATER)
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 LEE STRAIGHT PULL RIFLE

The above lists most of the major issue small arms of the period.  For those of you determined to field the rare and exotic, you can find just about everything here:

http://www.militaryrifles.com/                  

Please remember that lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are NOT allowed in this concept.  There are other venues for those.  IE once again, I know the Turks used 1866s at Plevna, don't care, not allowed.  

The Lee Enfield is NOT the SMLE, but the first, longer version.  The SMLE was developed in response to the Boer war, and fielded after 1903.

Upon request, I'm compiling a list of acceptable sidearms.  We'll start with US sidearms, and add more as I research.  Please PM me with any suggestions, all are welcome.  Experimental issues may be covered in another entry.

United States:
-1865- Colt M1860 (Army) Colt 1851 (Navy)
-1870- S&W #3 .44 American, 1000 issued
-1871- Colt M1871 (Richards Conversion).44 Colt. 1200 Issued.  Navy began issue of .38 SC conversions of the 1851.
-1873- Colt M1873 Single Action Army .45
-1875- S&W #3 "Schofield" M1875, .45 S&W
-1889- Navy issues Colt M1889 DA revolver .38 LC (.41 frame)
-1892- Colt M1892,4,5,6,01,03 DA revolver .38 LC (41 Frame)
-1895- Reissue of modified Colt M1873 with 5.5" barrel.
-1899- S&W M1899 M&P, 3000 issued for use in Phillipines. .38 LC (K frame, round butt)

Those wishing to use the later model Colt .41 frame models (Army Special/Official Police) may do so if in the following configuration: 6" unshrounded light barrel, fixed sights, blued,  Square butt.  "Officers" models may be allowed if proper to the portrayal.  

Later S&W K frames may also be used if having a 6" unshrouded light barrel, blued, fixed sights, ROUND butt.  NO "Officers" models allowed.  S&W did not offer such a model in this era.

Many found here:   http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/usarevpage.htm

British Empire:
-1856- Beaumont-Adams DA revolver
-1880- Enfield MK I, MK-II,.476 Enfield
-1887- Webley MK-I, II, III, IV, V.

France:
-1873- St Eteinne 11MM
-1892- Lebel M1892. 8MM

Germany:
-1879- M1879-1883 Reichsrevolver 10.6MM
-1896- Mauser c96 .30 Mauser and 9mm.

Russia:
-1870- S&W #3 .44 Russian
-1895- Nagant m1895 7.62 Nagant

Spain:
-1856- Adams 10.5MM
-1858/63- Lefaucheax 11MM
-1874-S&W #3 11MM
-1884- S&W#3 System ONA 11MM
-1887- Merwin Hulbert 11MM

Canada:
-1855- Colt 1851 .36
-1885- Colt 1878 .45 Colt
-1899/1900- Colt New Service .45 Colt

AUTOMATICS: MAUSER C96, SWISS LUGER .30 LUGER.

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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 09:48:06 pm »

This needs stickied!
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 03:48:34 pm »

I'm also going to have these posted on the GAF Website.

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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 09:16:17 pm »

I agree that this post needs to be "stickied" here in The Barracks, to keep it "front and center" ...
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2007, 11:03:24 am »

BTT
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2007, 11:24:15 am »

I am working with Sgt. Drydock to develop a couple of web pages for this.


Col Bull
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2007, 03:30:01 pm »

No loading aids, include or exclude Blakeslee Quickloader.

Dusty
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2007, 09:55:21 pm »

The Blakeslee is more of a ammo carrying device than a loading aid, and is allowed.  I'll make a note of that in the regs.  Frankly, I've timed several folks using Blakelsees, as opposed to simply grabbing a handful from a pouch, or single loading, and the Blakeslee is the slowest of the methods.  Looks cool though.
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2007, 01:47:28 pm »

The GAF web site has been updated to include the Battle Rifle material. To access the material use the "Competition" tab. You may have to do a "refresh" to get the latest versions.

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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 12:07:47 am »

Col. Bull Schmitt,
just visited the site, and all updated material displayed for me without refreshing.
Thank you.
RCJ
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2008, 10:15:43 am »

With the Grand Muster fast approaching, I thought it would be appropriate to bump this thread to the top for ease of reference. 

(I gather it wasn't 'stickied' here because the information is accessible on the GAF website, but it may be more convenient to do a quick check here than switching URL's ...)
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 08:57:16 pm »

Indeed, and thankee kindly Jack.
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2008, 10:01:35 am »

Forgive for I am but a lowly civillian.
I have a question regarding the buffalo Scout class.
Would the H&R buffalo classic and/or the handi rifle be alowed in this class with the ejectors disabled? 
I know they wern't aound back in the day but are close to some that were. 
Or is this class just for sporter and target vesions of the sharps, rolling blocks etc..
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2008, 11:01:28 am »

Yes.  WIth the ejector disabled, the various H&R single shots are indeed allowed in Buffalo Scout.
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2008, 08:06:12 pm »

Thank you for the quick reply.

Here is another thought to ponder.

We are thining of offering the GAF classes along with the SASS classes at a couple of our monthlly shoots next year.  Still working our the details. 

Basicly the rlfe caliber shooters would shoot half the rifle rounds but have tio reload to shoot all 10 pistol rounds on some of the stages but on others they would shoot all the rifle rounds reloading as nessecary but only shot the 1st 5 pistol shots. 
We would just have to make sure that our thicker targets are used for the rifles and maybe rifle distances would be a bit far compared to some of the other SASS matches in the area. 

I am thinking that this can be like a mini-muster but those Cowboys that don't know about GAF would also get a chance to shoot the way they are used to and see the GAF classes at the same time. 

We are also considering offering Wild bunch as a shooting class in the main match.

Any thoughts? opinions?


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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2008, 08:43:52 pm »

You are certainly free to do that, as long as your range officers are comfortable with the weapons and ammunition used.  Certainly the reason for our "Scout" classes is to allow CAS shooters to use CAS guns.  But make sure everyone understands the requirements, particularly the ammunition. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2008, 07:02:59 am »

I thnk as long as we keep the standard SASS max for rifle ammo we should be OK.
Our range is set up for High power shooting and we do our cowboy stuff about 50-75 yards back fromthe big berm.
most of our targets were made to handle jacketed pistol ammo for action pistol so I think the big lead bulets shouldn't be a problem. 

My main reason to try it together is that last summer I tried to have a SASS day on one day ans a GAF match on the next.
I had a decent turnout for the SASS match but couldnt get anyone of them to come back for the GAF match. 
I thought with doing it together we can show the battle rifle classes to SASS shooters so that next time they will want to try it.
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2008, 12:49:59 am »

Sgt. Drydock;

Great post!

But, the C-96 Mauser was NEVER sold W/O the Stripper Clips, as there is no practical way of loading one otherwise w/o them. Huh
It is the only way to properly disengage the Bolt Hold Open Mechanism after the rounds are stripped off into the magazine & it is pulled out from the slot it rests in for loading purposes & the disengagement of the B.H.O.M. w/ that removal. Roll Eyes
Most all of those I know that are involved in G.A.F. have rather Large Hands w/ fingers to match, which would make it extremely difficult to attempt to single load the C-96, which it wasn't designed to do in the first place. Tongue
So you either need to allow the use of the Stripper Clips or disallow the Use of the C-96 completely. Kiss
I can point you in the proper direction for Lit. on the C-96 if you wish to view that my statement is rather accurate. Wink

As for the Ladies attire, there is enough Photographic & Written Evidence to prove that they completely matched what ever the Uniform that they were Aping, w/ the exception of the Inclusion of the Skirt. Basically they were a Female Version of the Uniform O&R's. Yes, they even wore Trowsers under their Skirts while on Campaign & Horseback riding back home. The most popular form of Head Cover seems to the Kepi from the same sources previously mentioned. Wink

As I recall, Webley took out their first Patent on a Speed Loader was in 1883 & the First U.S. Patent was out of Ordnance Dept. in 1889 for issue to the Navy. So to disallow Period Speed Loaders seems rather silly to me. Huh I can see Mordern ones, but ones of the Period? Shocked

Cheers
Flashy
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2008, 02:50:48 am »

Col. Flashman,

Good to see you on the wire, have not seen your excellent comments in a while.

Old Top
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2008, 03:03:14 am »

Glad to be here & see you still around, O.T. Cool
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2008, 09:23:50 am »

Sgt. Drydock;

Great post!

But, the C-96 Mauser was NEVER sold W/O the Stripper Clips, as there is no practical way of loading one otherwise w/o them. Huh
It is the only way to properly disengage the Bolt Hold Open Mechanism after the rounds are stripped off into the magazine & it is pulled out from the slot it rests in for loading purposes & the disengagement of the B.H.O.M. w/ that removal. Roll Eyes
Most all of those I know that are involved in G.A.F. have rather Large Hands w/ fingers to match, which would make it extremely difficult to attempt to single load the C-96, which it wasn't designed to do in the first place. Tongue
So you either need to allow the use of the Stripper Clips or disallow the Use of the C-96 completely. Kiss
I can point you in the proper direction for Lit. on the C-96 if you wish to view that my statement is rather accurate. Wink

As for the Ladies attire, there is enough Photographic & Written Evidence to prove that they completely matched what ever the Uniform that they were Aping, w/ the exception of the Inclusion of the Skirt. Basically they were a Female Version of the Uniform O&R's. Yes, they even wore Trowsers under their Skirts while on Campaign & Horseback riding back home. The most popular form of Head Cover seems to the Kepi from the same sources previously mentioned. Wink

As I recall, Webley took out their first Patent on a Speed Loader was in 1883 & the First U.S. Patent was out of Ordnance Dept. in 1889 for issue to the Navy. So to disallow Period Speed Loaders seems rather silly to me. Huh I can see Mordern ones, but ones of the Period? Shocked

Cheers
Flashy

Sir,

I understand your reasons for concerns on the awkwardness of single loading of the Mauser Military Automatic and the lack of speed loader usage for the Service Revolvers. Please allow me to express my views and some solutions to these issues.


The banning of the speed loaders and clips levels the playing field quite a bit. Weapons of various eras may compete fairly without the technological advantages of a more advanced system giving a shooter such a large mechanical edge. For example, the clip loading feature of the various Mausers, Mannlichers, Nagants and the M1895 Navy Rifle give them a decided advantage over the tube fed rifles like the Winchester Hotchkiss, Remington Keene, M1871/84 Mauser and single loading rifles such as the Remington Lees, Krags and early Lee Metford.


Most 19th century revolvers do not lend themselves to the use of a speed loader. The M1873 Colt, Lebel and Nagant revolvers are a few examples. The Smith & Wesson top breaks and hand ejectors, the Colt New Model Army and Navy Revolvers and Webleys have enough of an advantage with their faster ejection over the previously mentioned designs.

There are two ways to load the Mauser Military Automatic without a clip. A tool could be inserted into the clip slot that would hold the bolt to the rear while cartridges were inserted singly, but I do not know if this is legal for the GAF. The way I load the Mauser without a clip is to wrap
my fingers under the magazine and trigger guard and place my thumb over the retracted bolt and give it all a firm squeeze. This effectively retains the bolt to the rear so that it does not go home when the first cartridge is inserted. Some people place their thumb on the hammer and pull back on the bolt with the pointer and index fingers of the same hand, but I find this method awkward.

I would hate to see any of the allowed rifles and pistols disqualified. The experience of seeing all of these historic firearms manipulated and fired at one event is unprecedented!
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 11:22:45 am »

On the C96, I wonder if it would be premitted to use the stripper clip to hold open, while inserting rounds manually, (to fit the single load method. I have tried this on my C-96, & I could load that way. If not, I would have to go along with having a strip of metal to hold open while manually loading.

However, my C-96 isn't operable to shoot, chamber is too wide, shells expand, & won't extract.

Dusty
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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2008, 05:48:27 pm »

Sir,

I understand your reasons for concerns on the awkwardness of single loading of the Mauser Military Automatic and the lack of speed loader usage for the Service Revolvers. Please allow me to express my views and some solutions to these issues.


The banning of the speed loaders and clips levels the playing field quite a bit. Weapons of various eras may compete fairly without the technological advantages of a more advanced system giving a shooter such a large mechanical edge. For example, the clip loading feature of the various Mausers, Mannlichers, Nagants and the M1895 Navy Rifle give them a decided advantage over the tube fed rifles like the Winchester Hotchkiss, Remington Keene, M1871/84 Mauser and single loading rifles such as the Remington Lees, Krags and early Lee Metford.


Most 19th century revolvers do not lend themselves to the use of a speed loader. The M1873 Colt, Lebel and Nagant revolvers are a few examples. The Smith & Wesson top breaks and hand ejectors, the Colt New Model Army and Navy Revolvers and Webleys have enough of an advantage with their faster ejection over the previously mentioned designs.

There are two ways to load the Mauser Military Automatic without a clip. A tool could be inserted into the clip slot that would hold the bolt to the rear while cartridges were inserted singly, but I do not know if this is legal for the GAF. The way I load the Mauser without a clip is to wrap my fingers under the magazine and trigger guard and place my thumb over the retracted bolt and give it all a firm squeeze. This effectively retains the bolt to the rear so that it does not go home when the first cartridge is inserted. Some people place their thumb on the hammer and pull back on the bolt with the pointer and index fingers of the same hand, but I find this method awkward.

I would hate to see any of the allowed rifles and pistols disqualified. The experience of seeing all of these historic firearms manipulated and fired at one event is unprecedented!


Leveling the Playing Field has never worked & Never will. I've been in this shooting sport long enough, 1984, to have witnessed all attempts @ this & it's only changed things for the worse! Angry

I am Specifically made my statement about the C-96 Mauser Semi-Auto Pistole, which as I stated Previously, is not designed to be single loaded , the two methods of single loading cartridges you mentioned, while a good attempt, aren't worth a damn & can Only lend itself to an A/D because someones fingers wont be strong enough for the job, as for a special tool to hold the bolt open, one just might as well use a Stripper Clip in the first place as it was designed to be used. Plus I made No statements about Rifles that used stripper clips.  Tongue

There were also a style of period pistole stripper clip speed loader for single actions made out of Bakelite & a semi-ridged rubber used exparamently by various militaries around the world & in the U.S. Shocked

Oh & as I recollect, the Lee-Medford used a type of stripper clip for loading purposes, but it had a Magazine Cut-Off so that its 8 rounds were held in reserve & then single rounds were then dropped onto it for volley firing. The Magazine Cut-Off was only disengaged & the 8 round magazine employed in emergency situations only, as in your position possibly being over-run by a Fuzzy-Wuzzy mass charge. Tongue
A magazine cut-off was also employed w/ the Winchester-Hotchkiss & used in the Same method & under the similar circumstances as the Lee-Medfords. Wink

If you've never seen a Period Cylindrical Speed Loaders, they look & function Nothing like Modern Cylindrical Speed Loaders, are rather clumsy to use & unless handled expertly have tendency to dump the rounds before you are able to insert them into the chambers & because of this they give no real advantage.  Tongue
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2008, 11:49:18 am »

Leveling the Playing Field has never worked & Never will. I've been in this shooting sport long enough, 1984, to have witnessed all attempts @ this & it's only changed things for the worse! Angry

I am Specifically made my statement about the C-96 Mauser Semi-Auto Pistole, which as I stated Previously, is not designed to be single loaded , the two methods of single loading cartridges you mentioned, while a good attempt, aren't worth a damn & can Only lend itself to an A/D because someones fingers wont be strong enough for the job, as for a special tool to hold the bolt open, one just might as well use a Stripper Clip in the first place as it was designed to be used. Plus I made No statements about Rifles that used stripper clips.  Tongue

There were also a style of period pistole stripper clip speed loader for single actions made out of Bakelite & a semi-ridged rubber used exparamently by various militaries around the world & in the U.S. Shocked

Oh & as I recollect, the Lee-Medford used a type of stripper clip for loading purposes, but it had a Magazine Cut-Off so that its 8 rounds were held in reserve & then single rounds were then dropped onto it for volley firing. The Magazine Cut-Off was only disengaged & the 8 round magazine employed in emergency situations only, as in your position possibly being over-run by a Fuzzy-Wuzzy mass charge. Tongue
A magazine cut-off was also employed w/ the Winchester-Hotchkiss & used in the Same method & under the similar circumstances as the Lee-Medfords. Wink

If you've never seen a Period Cylindrical Speed Loaders, they look & function Nothing like Modern Cylindrical Speed Loaders, are rather clumsy to use & unless handled expertly have tendency to dump the rounds before you are able to insert them into the chambers & because of this they give no real advantage.  Tongue

Good Day Sir!

While I may disagree with some of your reasoning, I do respect your opinion and look forward to meeting you on the field at Ft. Hartsuff come next October.


However, my C-96 isn't operable to shoot, chamber is too wide, shells expand, & won't extract.

Dusty

Dusty, Sir,

You may have already looked into having your pistol relined, but I must say that  I used  Redmans as part of the resurrection process  of one of these unusual weapons.   http://www.redmansrifling.com/mauser.htm  They are a bit more expensive, but reasonable, and thier work is superb. Many have used them and all are very satisfied with thier work, but  I can not say the same for the other commodities that perform this service.
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2008, 12:46:36 pm »

Ah, Flashie, yer a pip, and its good to hear from you.

As for Speedloaders in general, its a technological limitation independent of time period, moreover I do not see the need to have folks scrabbling around looking for the rare preserved period loader, or spending money to recreate one, in an attempt to one-up other folks on the firing line, using what was largly an experimental item.  "Leveling the Playing field" really has not much to do with it.  Rather than say "You can use this one, but not that one"  simpler just to get rid of the things all together.

Now you bring up a highly valid point on the C-96.  I was not aware of the limitations you express in the Mauser design.  I'll research this per your request, and see what I can come up with.  I like seeing the Winston Churchills favorite sidearm on the line, we may need to make an allowance for it, as it is the only significant self loader seen in our time period. 
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