Short Strokes BANNED?

[Major Matt Lewis]

I see your 18th Amendment rights, and call with my 1st Amendment rights....


Annie,

So with the Volstead Act, do you really think that the NCOWS Congresses intentions is to make it illegal to drink alcoholic beverages?  I am not sure they have the authority.  However, we should remind the NCOWS Congress that they don't have the authority to ratify "After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited."

Good job, The NCOWS Congress has to be kept in check sometimes

[Lars]

My appologies Joss, I did misunderstand. Just reviewed the material that was the source of my misunderstanding, and I should not have understood it as I did.

The more I see and hear about modifications to the toggle-link rifles, the happier I am that I do not own one.

Lars

[Black River Smith]

Matt,

I only mentioned you because you were an outspoken advocate of the short-stroke not being banned, that after the voting, truly showed your acceptance of the decision.  You acknowledged the final vote and did what was necessary(bought new Marlin) to comply, self police and move on.

I applaud that approach.

I was not in anyway holding you up or trying to ridicule you for having had one.  Quit the contrary I applaud your continued and freely given support of the NCOWS club and rules.

Nothing more or any less.

PS.  I will also have a Lightening Rifle someday and will fully enjoy shooting it at a NCOWS match, if approved, or if not approved, well then I will still have it.

Black River Smith

[Advertising]

[Lone Gunman]

I would like to go on record as being against the banning of liquor. However, I would fully support any law that would prohibit the short-stroking of liquor. Many is the time I've had to lay my Walker upside the head of a surly bartender who tried to short-stroke the pour spout of a fine single malt or anejo. 

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Ha, ha, Matt. The folks who passed the 18th Amendment said it was a done deal, too. So, go and take a look at the 21st Amendment.

AnnieLee

[Sod Buster]

Ha, ha, Matt. The folks who passed the 18th Amendment said it was a done deal, too. So, go and take a look at the 21st Amendment.

AnnieLee

A-HA!
So now the 18th Amendment reference becomes clear...what was once made law was overturned later.  Nothing can assumed to be set in store.

[Books OToole]

The difference is:  Banning Booze was a stupid Idea.

Books

[Dr. Bob]

WOW!  Boot leg short stroke kits!  Now there is an idea whose time has come.    I can smell the money already. 

[Lars]

WOW!  Boot leg short stroke kits!  Now there is an idea whose time has come.    I can smell the money already. 

All this sounds kinda familier .. kinda like what happened after the Volstead Act??

And that big tent of Dr. Bob's, with all those strange gadgets, woiuld be a great place to pick up a bootleg shortstroke kit.

Lars

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

The difference is:  Banning Booze was a stupid Idea.

Books

Nope, no difference. Banning short strokes without any means of verification or enforcement is a stupid idea.

AnnieLee

[Major Matt Lewis]

Matt,

I only mentioned you because you were an outspoken advocate of the short-stroke not being banned, that after the voting, truly showed your acceptance of the decision.  You acknowledged the final vote and did what was necessary(bought new Marlin) to comply, self police and move on.

I applaud that approach.

I was not in anyway holding you up or trying to ridicule you for having had one.  Quit the contrary I applaud your continued and freely given support of the NCOWS club and rules.

Nothing more or any less.

PS.  I will also have a Lightening Rifle someday and will fully enjoy shooting it at a NCOWS match, if approved, or if not approved, well then I will still have it.

Black River Smith

BRS (Easier than typing out Black River Smith.....DOH! )

I never took your reference to me in a negative manner.  I just thought I would explain to you and everybody the entire dynamics behind the situation and emphasize that the rifle that Books refered too does exist but has not been used for NCOWS duty since I have expanded my collection.  The first and only time the rifle that Books referenced was used was at my very first NCOWS match.  Books saw and handled the rifle in my basement.

So, those are the dynamics behind my post.  Hope to shoot with you sometime.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Annie,

You're right of course about repealing the 18th Amendment, but while it was in effect it was the law of the land.  In time, we may change it.  But until we do, it is the law of the land and the way to enhance the pro-short stroke stance is not to "rage against the machine" right now.  The non-short stroke folks have won the day.  We will see what move towards Marlins and pump rifles may bring, if anything.  Until then, I will use my legal Marlin, because there is nothing that is in NCOWS that is worth my integrity to win.

[Dr. Bob]

Major Matt,

Well said!

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Annie,

You're right of course about repealing the 18th Amendment, but while it was in effect it was the law of the land.  In time, we may change it.  But until we do, it is the law of the land and the way to enhance the pro-short stroke stance is not to "rage against the machine" right now.  The non-short stroke folks have won the day.  We will see what move towards Marlins and pump rifles may bring, if anything.  Until then, I will use my legal Marlin, because there is nothing that is in NCOWS that is worth my integrity to win.

Major Matt,

Please show me where I have ever said it wasn't the "law of the land"? Where I have ever said I would NOT obey this rule? Please, if you can, find it and quote me, because I haven't said it. You call it "rage against the machine", I call it taking action. If no one had ever taken action for the 21st Amendment, the 18th would still be the law of the land. 

There are many potential NCOWS members out there who have "short strokes" in their rifles. I can say with some measure of confidence that I've met about a hundred of them. These are not "top tier" shooters whose intent is to win at all costs. These are rank and file shooters who have had this work done to their rifles for a variety of reasons, primarily because they like how it feels when the overextension of the lever is brought down to about 90 degrees. Complacency toward the wording of this new rule will discourage them from entering the fold of NCOWS. Revising the wording to make it verifiable and enforceable will open the door for them.

You may chose the path of complacency, I chose the path of action.

AnnieLee

[Trap]

  I second Georges motion, Now discussion may begin.   jt

[Guage Rod]

I Guess I can sympathise with the folks that may have a 73 that has had the infamous conversion done on them so that they cycle faster.

I just don't think there are more than four shoots a year where it will matter that much unless the posse they shoot with is a lot more restrictive than the one where I shoot.

 I have a gun or two that I realy enjoy shooting at the Posse that are not "street lega"l at the regional or national level (Model p Junior 38 cal with a 4" barrel, also called a lightning and a Pinkerton gripped AWA 357 nickel plated bueaty).  I love to shoot these at the local posse shoots.  No one complains and they do not add or subtrack to my overal time or give me an advantage over the other shooters and I believe the others in the posse understand this.  These guns have the feel of the old west just aint legal at 4 maybe 5 shoots a year.  I shot 6 posse shoots and 2 or 3 regional and a national shoot if there is one.

I just have to take different weapons to different events.  My pocket pistol that is regulation will only shoot about 3 shots reliably with out me having to re-secure the top latch.  I would realy like to be able to use the p Junior which is to me safer, and much more reliable.  Just aint street legal at the national or regional level.

I abide by the rules.  I got a coulple of guns that meet specs and love them just the same.  I know at the regionals or nationals, I will not be shooting these two guns.  I bought them prior to knowing the NCOWS rules.  I can borrow a weapon or keep shoping for legal ones or convert the Ones I have where possible.  I am not a serious threat to the folks that are willing to put in the practice. To me it is not about the type of guns I shoot but how much I practice that will make the difference in my skills. I will never be able to shoot faster than my level of practice.  I do not believe I will be bitter about this to me this is what will make the difference im my times.

I am trying to make the point that I will abide by the bylaws cause with out rules there would be no protection from this organization becoming a bunch of well dressed CAS shooters. 

I chose to join again next year knowing I will not be shooting certain guns I own 3 or 4 times a year cause of the fact I can abide and live with the rules.  Would I vote to change a few if I could, yes but I can always vote with my feet If I do not like the rules.  Once again I think it took real courage to make the decision on the short stroke conversion.  Bravo Congress, keep up the good work and I will gladly vote you all a pay raise, oops, I forgot, I don't get to vote, you folks don't get paid.

If there is an opportunity for a revote, then it can be brought up again, until then, I will shoot the heck out of my non-compliant guns from time to time at the posse shoots and convert, trade  or buy some others as time and money allow.  Hey come to think of it, I have to let my wife know I got to have another gun or two so as to be "legitamate"
   
Vaya Con Dios     

[Cal and Lou]

I just don't think there are more than four shoots a year where it will matter that much unless the posse they shoot with is a lot more restrictive than the one where I shoot.

 I have a gun or two that I realy enjoy shooting at the Posse that are not "street lega"l at the regional or national level (Model p Junior 38 cal with a 4" barrel, also called a lightning and a Pinkerton gripped AWA 357 nickel plated bueaty).  I love to shoot these at the local posse shoots.  No one complains and they do not add or subtrack to my overal time or give me an advantage over the other shooters and I believe the others in the posse understand this. 

Guage Rod,

In your recent post, you have stated that you are shooting guns on the unapproved list at "posse" shoots. Are these NCOWS posse shoots? Because if an NCOWS posse is allowing the use of these guns at monthly sanctioned events, it is wrong for you and the posse. The rules on unapproved guns is for monthly matches as well as national and regional matches. There is no difference between a monthly match and national/regional if they are sanctioned events.

You mentioned that you are trying to abide by the bylaws. You are not abiding by the bylaws and neither is the NCOWS posse that you are shooting with.

[Lars]

Cal and Lou,

You bring up an interesting point, that is, that monthly shoots are to be treated exactly the same as annual shoots as regards the NCOWS regs. My experience is much like Gauge Rod's, that is, that rules (other than safety) are often relaxed at monthlys. This is mostly, perhaps totally, for guns and clothes.

I sure did not get the feeling that this was "bad" for either the individual or the posse. Actually, more the opposite.

Lars

[Cal and Lou]

Lars,

We weren’t aware that other clubs were relaxing the rules at monthly matches. That is very interesting. The only difference between an “annual” shoot and a monthly match would be when a new shooter shows up at a monthly match, they get some leeway with clothing. NTR has not allowed guns on the disapproved list to be used during any sanctioned event that we are aware of, including monthly shoots. If someone would show up for his very first shoot with an incorrect gun, they would be allowed to use it ONCE. They are told when they come back, they must use approved guns, or borrow them. We have personally loaned many people guns to use. People don’t usually just show up with incorrect guns, because people call us, or one of our other officers, and they are told before they ever come to the range what is allowed and not allowed. If they don’t have the correct guns, we bring extra guns for them to use. As far as clothing is concerned, new people have time to get their clothing together because you can’t loan clothes like you can guns. However, we expect people to improve on their clothing at every match until they get it right. (We will say that the biggest problem we have is getting people into correct hats, but that’s another story!)

We feel like our monthly matches are every bit the “event” that our Midwest Regional is with the exception that we don’t have vendors. The rules are made for all sanctioned NCOWS events.

As a matter of clarification, sanctioned events are events that are listed in THE SHOOTIST, this includes monthly shoots.

We often see quoted on this forum that people have two years to get their gear together. We have no idea where that came from and we don’t follow the "imaginary" 2-year rule at NTR. It’s one of those things that if it is said enough times, it supposedly becomes the truth, but it's not.

[Lars]

We feel like our monthly matches are every bit the “event” that our Midwest Regional is with the exception that we don’t have vendors. The rules are made for all sanctioned NCOWS events.

Cal and Lou,

Thanks for the longer, more detailed response. I still have a limited experience with NCOWS shoots at any level, so, my comments are definitely limited in their applicability.

I do find your comment, which I quote above, striking. It is so at odds with what I find in all shooting venues I have participated in. But then, just about everyone I shoot with considers monthy (or weekly leagues) shoots to be practice for the bigger shoots.

Lars