Author Topic: Cimarron's new American model!  (Read 34313 times)

Offline Major 2

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2018, 05:07:34 PM »
Since the Coffinmaker , Pathfinder and Will ( and my own self ) agree ...

I moved the forth coming American to # 1 on my want list ...


If the Planets line up just so it will join these two.... and in 44 Spec. / Russian
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2018, 05:33:02 PM »
Now I have a question.  A quandary if you will.  Recently, I read a short thread about shooting BP thru a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  I believe we all know, it don't work.  Maybe.

Because Uberti removed most all of the Schofield Gas Ring when they extended the cylinder to accommodate 45 Colt, the gun now fouls terribly.  Even Mine (I had one).  But the short thread I ran into, related using Cowboy 45 Special cases, 150Gr EPP UG bullets and Pearl Lube.  The author related being able to shoot his Schofield in .45 Colt with no more hassle than any other suppository shooter.  I no longer have a Schofield with which to investigate.  Also, the EPP UG 45 carries a boat load of any lube.

I do have a LARGE "WHY" but no empirical data.  I "think" his success may have been because the initial blast of gun gas exiting the cartridge was well behind  the cylinder face and more "shaped" for entry into the barrel breach.  Da guy said it works.  That would indicate to me, the same may well also be true for a .44 Special Uberti with the "new build" long cylinder.  Switching to 44 Russian cases could well make the Uberti Schofield more civilized rather than running that heathen fad stuff.

Need someone with the appropriate hardware to try and then report back.  Oh, forgot.  What's "Pearl Lube?"

Some guns will, some won't. It is because the original Smith and Wessons have a much longer bushing extending in front of the cylinder so nothing blows in around the pin. I think as you mentioned it partly has much to do with just "how much" black powder and fouling you are throwing at it affects your success rate along with the lube itself.

A friend who is on this board shoots his with 45 Schofield loads and it runs fine with normal grease and big lubes. Maybe he will report on it if he sees this. I know another fella that tried it in 44-40 uberti schofield and it locked up tight after a few rounds but I don't know what bullets he was using but I'm sure bore butter on the pin because he is a fan of that.
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Offline Mogorilla

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2018, 07:11:22 AM »
I agree with you on all counts Books.  Would love one in 44-40 and would totally put that on hold to buy a model 2 in 32 cf. 

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2018, 12:33:59 PM »

Now for some real BLASPHEMY.  Were I certain of success with BP and Subs in a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  Did I say CERTAIN!!!  I'd buy a pair of Uberti .45s with the Three and a Half inch barrels.  Yepper I would.  Then I'd ship em off to TK precision and have them set up for Moon Clips.  Then I'd load them in accordance with the suggested success formula (.45 ACP case has the same internal capacity as the C45S and is the same OAL at the case mouth), 150Gr EPP UG 45 with a boat load of nice soft lube and let em rip.  Yessir I would.

Now ....... I know the purists are taring their collective fur out by the roots at the mere mention of Moon Clips in a Schofield but just think of the consternation you'd raise at your typical CAS match.  Some of those SASS Thread Counters would suffer immediate apoplexy the second the Schofield ejected the Moonie.  Oh what FUN!! 

Oh, and if necessary, the TK Moon Mod does leave a shelf for the case rim should one want to run C45S rather than ACPs in the Moonies.

Offline Blair

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2018, 03:09:33 PM »
I really don't care what a firearm might be chambered in by todays repro's. . 44 rim fire is simply not a practical choice for modern shooters. So if one has a choice, why not go with what the originals had - if that were available. .44 Russian or .44 Special are!

Now, this subject is based on the "American" or "Russian" revolver. Not the Schofield type revolver!
However, One can cut the barrel of a Schofield off to a 3 and 1/2" barrel because the extractor rod housing is shorter on the Schofield than on the earlier Models.
I also have no problem with any barrel length. Providing the design allows for the modification. Basing this type of modification off of an original example would also be nice. That isn't going to happen here!
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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #45 on: Today at 09:05:13 AM »

Offline Jack Straw

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2018, 03:27:04 PM »
Well Coffinmaker, I like the idea of opening a Schof and popping out a moon clip.  Yes, it would raise some eyebrows!!

I know we're getting a ways off topic here but back in the dark ages (when men were men and targets were small)  our monthly match at the Pala Reservation in So. Cal. typically had a stage that required a handgun reload.  Yours truly was an early adopter of Navy Arms Schofields and on those reload stages I, being a smart ass, would shout at my posse mates and ask them to watch carefully as my breaktop ejected its empties skyward five at a time.  Great fun it was.  I never understood the fascination with poking at an ejector rod but, to each his own, eh?

Offline John William McCandles

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2018, 04:01:27 PM »
As Cliff stated in a previous post, I can run a full match with my Uberti Schofield in .45. I use .45 Schofield cases with a 200 grain big lube over Goex FFg powder. It is an older Navy Arms import with no modifications. When I bought it used off Gun Broker Bushwhacker and I ran 60 rounds of the same load through it with no trouble.
Maybe I'm just lucky or it could be my setup on a stock pistol.
As a matter of fact I won the 2 gun black powder duelist category at the 2018 NCOWs National shoot with it.
RD Strain also shoots his Uberti Russian in .44 Russian running black powder.

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Offline JollyJake

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2018, 10:30:11 PM »
Can't get here soon enough.

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2018, 12:21:23 AM »
Interesting for sure. I wonder if they copied the hammer actuated bolt one or the trigger actuated bolt model?  ???  As well, I wonder if they copied the original rack & pinion extractor or got lazy and just slapped in the later Schofield one as they are already tooled up for it?  ??? Regardless, it will win on style points as it was the first large cal. metallic ctg. production American made revolver having gone on sale to the public in the latter part of 1870 when Colt was fiddle farting around with the Thuer.  ;)

Offline Dave T

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2018, 09:02:33 AM »
I don't believe the Model 3 was ever chambered for the 44 WCF, for the same reason the Schofield wasn't chambered for the 45 Colt. The cylinder was too short. and that resulted from the original No3 being chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, the shorter older brother to the 44 Special.

If this new gun (or figment of Uberti's imagination) is chambered for the 44 Special it is no more authentic than their Schofield, in that they both have longer cylinders than the originals.

Dave

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #50 on: Today at 09:05:13 AM »

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2018, 09:33:08 AM »

Well Golly Gosh Dave T., 

Authenticity is such a fickle mistriss.  If the Smith Replicants were dead authentic, then the unwashed masses would all be complaining because they weren't being made in 45 Colt, not 44-40 and why wasn't Uberti making them with an extended cylinder.  Nobody is ever satisfied.  What's wrong with "Don't worry ..... Be Happy".  After all, maybe Cimarron won't introduce the thing, and Uberti won't make the thing for retail on this side of the pond.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2018, 09:48:39 AM »
I also have a Uberti Schofield, a 5" .45, and using Big Lube bullets (I have the 250 grain PRS mold) with the S&W case it runs just fine with OE 3f Black.  Fine combination with my .45 Henry.  (lube is olive oil and old church candle stubs)

Just an observation: the continuous popularity of the .45 Colt round was one of the contributing factors in the creation of CAS and the modern cowboy shooting genre.  Even should CAS completely die off it will still be a popular seller.  It simply makes no economic sense to create a large frame vintage reproduction that does not accommodate this round.   We are a Niche market, and compromises must be made and accepted.

Or you'll get nothing, and like it!

(FWIW, my shaved 1915 Webley MK V loves BP in a .45 ACP/Auto Rim case.)
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2018, 10:08:04 AM »

I fear, were I to set foot inna church to abscond with the candle Stubbs, I would suddenly find myself with a profusion of well seasoned ceiling beams.  Not I.  Nope.  Perhaps is some kindly soul were to bring them out ............  ::)

Offline Drydock

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2018, 10:44:28 AM »
It helps if ya volenteers to help clean said church.  There's always a box of stubs to be thrown away.  An at least fer us Catholics, they have to be beeswax.  (Church law says they has to be of "natural" materials)

Perhaps if you was to make friends with some well meaning if naieve church lady . . .
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Trailrider

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2018, 11:53:21 AM »
I don't believe the Model 3 was ever chambered for the 44 WCF, for the same reason the Schofield wasn't chambered for the 45 Colt. The cylinder was too short. and that resulted from the original No3 being chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, the shorter older brother to the 44 Special.

If this new gun (or figment of Uberti's imagination) is chambered for the 44 Special it is no more authentic than their Schofield, in that they both have longer cylinders than the originals.

Dave
The New Model #3 was chambered in .44-40 and .38-40, with the cylinder and IIRC the frame lengthened accordingly. I saw an original in .44-40 BLOWN UP!!! by a shooter who was using smokeless reloads from a "friend".  :o :'(  Unfortunately, I was not permitted to examine his remaining loads or the gun, so can't say what caused the damage.  It has been quite a few years ago, but I seem to recall he fired two rounds that impacted about 10 feet in front of the muzzle.  It could have been a double charge or "premature shot-start", a phenomenon where insufficient crimp and case tension on the bullet allows the slug to jump into the forcing cone before the smokeless powder is burning stably (5,000-7,000 psi). When the bullet stops, the pressures increase exponentially until the case ruptures, allowing flame to cut through the cylinder walls!  Regardless, it was a real shame that a fairly rare gun (on a few thousand NM#3's were made in the longer rounds) was ruined.  :(
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Offline Dave T

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2018, 04:50:25 PM »
Trailrider,

I stand (or in this case set)  corrected. I did not know that. All the originals I've seen were the shorter cylinder models.

Coffinmaker,

You took me way to seriously. I was trying to answer a question (to which it turns out I had the wrong information) and simply making an observation. Perhaps you need to stay off the strong coffee for a while (smile)

Dave

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2018, 11:59:06 PM »
Having shot two actual REAL American Models I can assure you that no one will be "gaming" in CAS with one. They are a rather large revolver and ungainly for fast cocking. Most buyers will be buying one either for historical reasons and get one chambered in .44 Russian as there were Old Old Model Russians (collector nomenclature) chambered in that round and I have a friend who has a 2nd Model American chambered in .44 Russian!! We figure it was a factory cleanout using an excess Russian cylinder. The second set of buyers will be those who just simply want one and will want one in their favorite chambering, e.g., .45 Colt & 44-40. They will probably not shoot it much just for the reason I listed in my second sentence above. It was a novel breakthrough at the time, but fast shootin' it ain't.  ;)

Offline Blair

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2018, 01:03:03 PM »
S&W produces several of the long cylinder variations of their revolver. All are within the New Model #3's or the DA variation sometime after 1881 when the DA was introduced.
Non of the earlier models of the "New Model's" (types) were produced with the long cylinder. These earlier models were chambered in .44 Henry rim fire, .44 S&W (American) or .44 Russian.
"New Model" (types including the DA's and "Target Models" will be chambered in .32-44 and 38-44 "Target", .38-40 and .44-40 (WCF) in both the SA and DA revolvers.
So why not the .45 Colt in either the S&W or Winchester? They could have!
It was because of the small rim dia. of the older style cartridge cases of the .45 Colt. Extracting a fired case was simply not reliable!
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 Blair
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Offline nativeshootist

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2018, 09:04:53 PM »
The new model 3 was chambered in 44wcf, a lot of these repros cant be authentic since a lot of the ammo they were originally chambered for aren't around no more. So if the cylinder is a little bit lengthen, so what?

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2018, 11:13:23 PM »
...So if the cylinder is a little bit lengthen, so what?

Because they will probably do just what ASM & Uberti did with the Schofield in lengthening the cylinder for .45 Colt:  eliminate the gas collar that is so desperately needed to fire real BP. S&W lengthened their gas collar THREE times during Model 3 manufacture in the 1800's for that very reason, i.e., fouling issues.

 

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