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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Frontier Iron => Topic started by: nativeshootist on October 25, 2018, 12:04:16 am

Title: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on October 25, 2018, 12:04:16 am
Looks like many pards dreams have been answered, Cimarron has a Model 3 American model in the works!

(https://i.imgur.com/s87CD5B.png)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on October 25, 2018, 05:23:47 am
Time to start saving those pennies again. ;D Only been asking for one for the last twenty years, well me and Forty Rod. ::)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Tornado on October 25, 2018, 07:14:28 am
That looks really cool!
Coming Soon!  ::)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Major 2 on October 25, 2018, 10:04:19 am
Oh crap !  44 Russian & 44 Spc'l   Dang.... yep want one
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Jake C on October 25, 2018, 10:12:10 am
I'm intrigued by that .44 Special version. It would make a fun pairing with my .44 1860 conversion. Fire .44 Colt out of both of them. I'm desperately hoping that the American Model can handle BP better than the Schofield.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on October 25, 2018, 11:11:31 am
Mike Harvey has been wanting Uberti to make it for a good while.  He owns Texas Jack Omohundro's American.  I wouldn't hold my breath on it being able to shoot BP (  :( ) but maybe???
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Jake C on October 25, 2018, 11:14:36 am
Mike Harvey has been wanting Uberti to make it for a good while.  He owns Texas Jack Omohundro's American.  I wouldn't hold my breath on it being able to shoot BP (  :( ) but maybe???

I could dream  ;D Oh well, I'll have to wait on it for a good while anyway. Hope you all who are able to get them enjoy them! I'm very excited for you all!
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Jack Straw on October 25, 2018, 11:34:08 am
Being a sucker for Schofields and any S&W breaktops I'll have to get one in .45 with the 8" bbl.  Or two.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Dave T on October 25, 2018, 03:44:01 pm
But will it function with black powder or clog up after a cylinder? Inquiring minds want to know!

Dave
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Books OToole on October 26, 2018, 08:17:18 am
I'd rather have a New Model 3 in .44 Russian &/or .44-40;  But I guess I'll have to get an American.
(If they ever really produce one.)

Books



(I still think an old model 2 in .32 cf would sell like hot-cakes to Civil War Reinactore.)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Major 2 on October 26, 2018, 09:18:18 am
Cimarron's view of "coming soon" ...is different that of reasonable people ...

I offer the little Colt pocket model in .380 that been announced " coming soon " for about 14 months  ..

I recall, the Richards Type II in 07 ....60 more days I was told about 5 times = 300 days it was two years by the time I got one and that was from another source !


I have a #3 and an original Russian ...I may get a 1st. model but I'm not holding my breath

my feeling is it won't happen while I'm still young   :-\
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Will Ketchum on October 26, 2018, 11:26:58 am
.I may get a 1st. model but I'm not holding my breath

my feeling is it won't happen while I'm still young   :-\

It's already too late for that Roger.  ;)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Major 2 on October 26, 2018, 12:56:36 pm
Yeah ! see  ;)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Galloway on October 26, 2018, 11:12:47 pm
This is great news! If had in 44 Russian you could call it a First Model Russian like Major 2 implied. Either way it was much more common than the schofield on the frontier. This makes my day, way to go Cimarron! Cheers!
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on October 27, 2018, 10:21:25 am
Now I just have to decide on caliber and barrel length, nah, already know it'll be an 8" in 44 Russian.  ;D
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on October 27, 2018, 01:14:49 pm
The image shown in the add looks very good.
But, I'm just going to have to wait until they actually come out with one in two to four years from now.
I have an original #3 1ST Model Russian ("Old Old Model Russian", as they were called by 1877). I would like to see how the new and the old in this variation compare with each other. I would hope the Italians do a better job making these than they did with their modification of the #3, 3rd. Model Russian into the "New Model" Russians. (Too much of the #3, 3rd Mod. remains in their New Mod.)
These things are going to be expensive! But, If the Italians do their homework well, they will be worth it.
My best,
 Blair 
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on October 30, 2018, 02:46:46 am
  I'm not all that familiar with this model of revolver, but in their ad, the latch looks different to me than on their similar models.

 CHT
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on October 30, 2018, 10:08:56 am
Only video I can think of for the model 3 american, is midway usa's video on reloading some .44 american cartridges. The latch was improved upon by the Russians (I think) and Schofield, his latch system being why that certain model 3 was called a Schofield. I think it would be interesting to see the American model be compared with the rest of the model 3 line.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on November 06, 2018, 10:47:49 am
Been searching the web for any info on this...NOTHING ,,,ZILCH,,,BIG GOOSE EGG,,, ZERO,, TURD WITH ALL THE CRAP SCRAPPED OFF IT,,,NOTHING !!! No info on this gun anywhere... :'(,,It should be against the law to tease people like this...I think it might be a sin.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on November 06, 2018, 12:41:04 pm
Been searching the web for any info on this...NOTHING ,,,ZILCH,,,BIG GOOSE EGG,,, ZERO,, TURD WITH ALL THE CRAP SCRAPPED OFF IT,,,NOTHING !!! No info on this gun anywhere... :'(,,It should be against the law to tease people like this...I think it might be a sin.


Willy, the ad for the Cimarron American is on their home page.  There are about ten banners that rotate across the top of the page, the American is one of those.  You can click on the  >  button on the right to get to it quicker.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cliff Fendley on November 06, 2018, 12:56:41 pm
I still can't decide what caliber to get
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on November 06, 2018, 02:47:38 pm
Cliff,

The .44 S&W "American" cartridge is not listed. So, this variation should not be called a S&W "American" revolver!
.44 Russian is the most correct cartridge caliber for this variation. .44 Special would be next, but then you could shot Russian or .44 Special ammo in it.
This suggestion on my part is only if you wish to maintain any form of Historical Authenticity
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Jake C on November 06, 2018, 02:59:30 pm
Cliff,

The .44 S&W "American" cartridge is not listed. So, this variation should not be called a S&W "American" revolver!
.44 Russian is the most correct cartridge caliber for this variation. .44 Special would be next, but then you could shot Russian or .44 Special ammo in it.
This suggestion on my part is only if you wish to maintain any form of Historical Authenticity
My best,
 Blair

If I got it (not likely after the recent home repairs), I'd follow Blair's advice and go the .44 Special route. Shoot either .44 Russian or modern .44 Colt out of it. It's a fun caliber, and the .44 Russian is the closest to authentic that you can get. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on November 06, 2018, 05:37:01 pm

Willy, the ad for the Cimarron American is on their home page.  There are about ten banners that rotate across the top of the page, the American is one of those.  You can click on the  >  button on the right to get to it quicker.
[/quote]


I was wanting to know at least a date as to when ....give or take a few months,,,,,And maybe some prices..
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cliff Fendley on November 06, 2018, 05:40:41 pm
Cliff,

The .44 S&W "American" cartridge is not listed. So, this variation should not be called a S&W "American" revolver!
.44 Russian is the most correct cartridge caliber for this variation. .44 Special would be next, but then you could shot Russian or .44 Special ammo in it.
This suggestion on my part is only if you wish to maintain any form of Historical Authenticity
My best,
 Blair

I was sort of thinking 44 special for the reasons you mention but also wondered about the 44-40, was the model 3 not available in 44-40 at one time or was that a different variation of it? I'm sure I've seen original chambered in 44-40
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Galloway on November 06, 2018, 07:24:10 pm
The 1878 new model no. 3 was chambered for 44wcf but not the American.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coal Creek Griff on November 06, 2018, 10:06:22 pm
I believe that the #3 was originally in 44 Henry, then 44/100 (44 American), then 44 Russian.

CC Griff
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on November 07, 2018, 02:32:43 am
Cliff,

The .44 S&W "American" cartridge is not listed. So, this variation should not be called a S&W "American" revolver!
.44 Russian is the most correct cartridge caliber for this variation. .44 Special would be next, but then you could shot Russian or .44 Special ammo in it.
This suggestion on my part is only if you wish to maintain any form of Historical Authenticity
My best,
 Blair

For one, that's like saying we cant call the 1860/1866 series of rifles and the open top revolvers by their names because they ain't chambered in .44 henry. #2, .44 american is a dead round. And 3rd not every little detail should not really count as no one will mass manufacture. 44 american and the pistol is based off of an actual S&W model 3 American. Rants done, sorry about that.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on November 07, 2018, 07:09:13 am
Cliff,

Your are correct. But not until the introduction of the "New Model" #3 which was in 1877, and then it will be a few years after that (about 1880) that S&W introduces the long cylinder variation which allows for chambering the longer 44-40 and 38-40.
I would suggest caution with the 44 Colt. The small rim dia. may cause issues with case extraction.
I hope this helps.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cliff Fendley on November 07, 2018, 07:17:35 am
Cliff,

Your are correct. But not until the introduction of the "New Model" #3 which was in 1877, and then it will be a few years after that (about 1880) that S&W introduces the long cylinder variation which allows for chambering the longer 44-40 and 38-40.
I would suggest caution with the 44 Colt. The small rim dia. may cause issues with case extraction.
I hope this helps.
My best,
 Blair

What other differences are there besides the longer cylinder? Sorry I'm just not that familiar with the S&W models. Should this Cimarron not have been the new model since it obviously has a longer cylinder or are there other obvious differences?
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on November 07, 2018, 09:41:31 am
Cliff,

I would suggest getting the book, "Smith & Wesson,1857-1945" by Neal & Jinks.
This would be the simplest suggestion I could make for a subject that can be very complex. Just within the large frame #3 revolvers there are 4 major design types known as "Models" of the #3's. And each of these major models may have several improvements made to them during their production life. These improvements may also be call "Models" (with a number) by S&W at that time.
An example of this is the first model #3 American and Russian. With some internal improvements these become known as the Second Model of the first model #3 American or Russian Model.
Nomenclature starts to get really confusing with the introduction of the #3 Model 2, and the later #3 Model 3. I guess S&W was also getting confused as well because the forth variation was simply called the "New Model #3"
Again, I hope this helps.
My best,
 Blair   
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on November 07, 2018, 11:21:41 am
In my opinion, the most obvious visual differences in the various major models of #3 S&W is in the length of the extractor rod housings beneath the barrel group. The older models have very long housings compared to the newer ones such as the "New Model #3's", which are almost nonexistent. Improvements in extractor design of the extractor, helps to lighten this barrel group.
Next would be in the shape of the grip portion of the frame group. These variations are something that I believe most people notice first. Grip shape comes about due to the large numbers of revolvers being orders from the Russian Gov.
Many other less obvious changes exist. The book on S&W, 1857-1945 will help point these changes out and offer explanations as to why they were used.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on November 07, 2018, 05:48:39 pm

Picky .... Picky .... PICKY!!  Why is it??  What you might ask.  Well, it seems a lot of folks spend an inordinate amount of time championing their respective wish list of "wants" for reproductions of obsolete guns.  A manufacturer such as Uberti takes the challenge and brings out a Smithy and Wesson (Oil??) Schofield and suddenly all those whom whined start to pick it apart.

Here we are, new S&W #3, what happens??  Pick it apart.  Find every flaw from the Original.  Way back, when the reproduction of the Schofield appeared the glitterati screamed because it wasn't available in 45 Colt.  What??  The original was never chambered in .45 Colt but now we had to have a 45 Colt and guess what, we got it and it won't run with BP unless carefully massaged (If then).  Be careful what you ask for.

So instead of finding every little flaw in the new offering, get out there and BUY ONE so Uberti will continue to make them.  I personally want a pair to go with my 1866 .44 Russian Trapper.  Of course, Mine will be set up for 44 Russian.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Major 2 on November 07, 2018, 06:54:00 pm
Word ! 
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cliff Fendley on November 07, 2018, 07:44:28 pm
Thanks for the info
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on November 08, 2018, 12:23:55 am
.44 russian or special  is what I'm thinking if or when I ever get one,  I like the american repro. All the other model 3 repros were out by time I get into these replicas, so having a new one come out is exciting to me.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on November 08, 2018, 08:58:25 am

Now I have a question.  A quandary if you will.  Recently, I read a short thread about shooting BP thru a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  I believe we all know, it don't work.  Maybe.

Because Uberti removed most all of the Schofield Gas Ring when they extended the cylinder to accommodate 45 Colt, the gun now fouls terribly.  Even Mine (I had one).  But the short thread I ran into, related using Cowboy 45 Special cases, 150Gr EPP UG bullets and Pearl Lube.  The author related being able to shoot his Schofield in .45 Colt with no more hassle than any other suppository shooter.  I no longer have a Schofield with which to investigate.  Also, the EPP UG 45 carries a boat load of any lube.

I do have a LARGE "WHY" but no empirical data.  I "think" his success may have been because the initial blast of gun gas exiting the cartridge was well behind  the cylinder face and more "shaped" for entry into the barrel breach.  Da guy said it works.  That would indicate to me, the same may well also be true for a .44 Special Uberti with the "new build" long cylinder.  Switching to 44 Russian cases could well make the Uberti Schofield more civilized rather than running that heathen fad stuff.

Need someone with the appropriate hardware to try and then report back.  Oh, forgot.  What's "Pearl Lube?"
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Will Ketchum on November 08, 2018, 11:06:02 am
Picky .... Picky .... PICKY!!  Why is it??  What you might ask.  Well, it seems a lot of folks spend an inordinate amount of time championing their respective wish list of "wants" for reproductions of obsolete guns.  A manufacturer such as Uberti takes the challenge and brings out a Smithy and Wesson (Oil??) Schofield and suddenly all those whom whined start to pick it apart.

Here we are, new S&W #3, what happens??  Pick it apart.  Find every flaw from the Original.  Way back, when the reproduction of the Schofield appeared the glitterati screamed because it wasn't available in 45 Colt.  What??  The original was never chambered in .45 Colt but now we had to have a 45 Colt and guess what, we got it and it won't run with BP unless carefully massaged (If then).  Be careful what you ask for.

So instead of finding every little flaw in the new offering, get out there and BUY ONE so Uberti will continue to make them.  I personally want a pair to go with my 1866 .44 Russian Trapper.  Of course, Mine will be set up for 44 Russian.

Amen my friend
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on November 08, 2018, 11:59:34 am
Coffinmaker,

No new "Smithy and Wesson (oil??)"? Do you have access to an Original #3 S&W for comparison? (even if you barrow these for your own comparison?)
I think I could address your "quandary" if you could. But, it will have to be in a situation where you can see what I am suggesting for yourself.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on November 08, 2018, 04:03:21 pm
Coffinmaker, you da man! I can remember when I bought the Navy Arms Uberti Schofield back when it came out, got it in 45 Colt and had a blast with it. Then the 45 Schofield cases came on the scene and I had even more fun with it, knowing I was shooting the correct ammo (or as close as I was going to get because of BP fouling) out of it. Now it has a stable mate, an original S&W 2nd model that was cut down to around 4 1/2"s or so sometime in the past. And now I know just what the BP Schofield can do and how much fun it is (out of a Smith, been using them for years in old Colts).
Last year I stumbled onto a good deal for a cut down 2nd model American and have been trying to gather up everything I need to fire it. Now that I've got everything I'll take some time this winter and get a batch of 44 American loaded up for the spring (can't understand why the indoor range people object to all that sulfurous smoke). And now, after all the years of asking for it, Cimarron answers our prayers and announces an American replica (finally Uberti agreed with Mike). Can't think of a better retirement present the kids can all chip in together on for the old man (course I've got to survive till retirement yet).
I know that the lawyers have gotten involved and can't wait to see just how they may have corrupted the old girl, but I'll still love her when she finally arrives on the scene. Why, because I asked for her, all the way back to Val Forgett II, and tho it's taken many years and many extra hands, I'm just grateful to realize that someone is listening to us. And minor variations from the original and all, I still try to support those that support and work for us.

As I said before, 8"s of barrel and in 44 Russian...close enough for me. And you won't hear any complaints.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Major 2 on November 08, 2018, 05:07:34 pm
Since the Coffinmaker , Pathfinder and Will ( and my own self ) agree ...

I moved the forth coming American to # 1 on my want list ...


If the Planets line up just so it will join these two.... and in 44 Spec. / Russian
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cliff Fendley on November 08, 2018, 05:33:02 pm
Now I have a question.  A quandary if you will.  Recently, I read a short thread about shooting BP thru a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  I believe we all know, it don't work.  Maybe.

Because Uberti removed most all of the Schofield Gas Ring when they extended the cylinder to accommodate 45 Colt, the gun now fouls terribly.  Even Mine (I had one).  But the short thread I ran into, related using Cowboy 45 Special cases, 150Gr EPP UG bullets and Pearl Lube.  The author related being able to shoot his Schofield in .45 Colt with no more hassle than any other suppository shooter.  I no longer have a Schofield with which to investigate.  Also, the EPP UG 45 carries a boat load of any lube.

I do have a LARGE "WHY" but no empirical data.  I "think" his success may have been because the initial blast of gun gas exiting the cartridge was well behind  the cylinder face and more "shaped" for entry into the barrel breach.  Da guy said it works.  That would indicate to me, the same may well also be true for a .44 Special Uberti with the "new build" long cylinder.  Switching to 44 Russian cases could well make the Uberti Schofield more civilized rather than running that heathen fad stuff.

Need someone with the appropriate hardware to try and then report back.  Oh, forgot.  What's "Pearl Lube?"

Some guns will, some won't. It is because the original Smith and Wessons have a much longer bushing extending in front of the cylinder so nothing blows in around the pin. I think as you mentioned it partly has much to do with just "how much" black powder and fouling you are throwing at it affects your success rate along with the lube itself.

A friend who is on this board shoots his with 45 Schofield loads and it runs fine with normal grease and big lubes. Maybe he will report on it if he sees this. I know another fella that tried it in 44-40 uberti schofield and it locked up tight after a few rounds but I don't know what bullets he was using but I'm sure bore butter on the pin because he is a fan of that.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Mogorilla on November 09, 2018, 07:11:22 am
I agree with you on all counts Books.  Would love one in 44-40 and would totally put that on hold to buy a model 2 in 32 cf. 
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on November 09, 2018, 12:33:59 pm

Now for some real BLASPHEMY.  Were I certain of success with BP and Subs in a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  Did I say CERTAIN!!!  I'd buy a pair of Uberti .45s with the Three and a Half inch barrels.  Yepper I would.  Then I'd ship em off to TK precision and have them set up for Moon Clips.  Then I'd load them in accordance with the suggested success formula (.45 ACP case has the same internal capacity as the C45S and is the same OAL at the case mouth), 150Gr EPP UG 45 with a boat load of nice soft lube and let em rip.  Yessir I would.

Now ....... I know the purists are taring their collective fur out by the roots at the mere mention of Moon Clips in a Schofield but just think of the consternation you'd raise at your typical CAS match.  Some of those SASS Thread Counters would suffer immediate apoplexy the second the Schofield ejected the Moonie.  Oh what FUN!! 

Oh, and if necessary, the TK Moon Mod does leave a shelf for the case rim should one want to run C45S rather than ACPs in the Moonies.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on November 09, 2018, 03:09:33 pm
I really don't care what a firearm might be chambered in by todays repro's. . 44 rim fire is simply not a practical choice for modern shooters. So if one has a choice, why not go with what the originals had - if that were available. .44 Russian or .44 Special are!

Now, this subject is based on the "American" or "Russian" revolver. Not the Schofield type revolver!
However, One can cut the barrel of a Schofield off to a 3 and 1/2" barrel because the extractor rod housing is shorter on the Schofield than on the earlier Models.
I also have no problem with any barrel length. Providing the design allows for the modification. Basing this type of modification off of an original example would also be nice. That isn't going to happen here!
My best,
 Blair 
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Jack Straw on November 09, 2018, 03:27:04 pm
Well Coffinmaker, I like the idea of opening a Schof and popping out a moon clip.  Yes, it would raise some eyebrows!!

I know we're getting a ways off topic here but back in the dark ages (when men were men and targets were small)  our monthly match at the Pala Reservation in So. Cal. typically had a stage that required a handgun reload.  Yours truly was an early adopter of Navy Arms Schofields and on those reload stages I, being a smart ass, would shout at my posse mates and ask them to watch carefully as my breaktop ejected its empties skyward five at a time.  Great fun it was.  I never understood the fascination with poking at an ejector rod but, to each his own, eh?
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: John William McCandles on November 09, 2018, 04:01:27 pm
As Cliff stated in a previous post, I can run a full match with my Uberti Schofield in .45. I use .45 Schofield cases with a 200 grain big lube over Goex FFg powder. It is an older Navy Arms import with no modifications. When I bought it used off Gun Broker Bushwhacker and I ran 60 rounds of the same load through it with no trouble.
Maybe I'm just lucky or it could be my setup on a stock pistol.
As a matter of fact I won the 2 gun black powder duelist category at the 2018 NCOWs National shoot with it.
RD Strain also shoots his Uberti Russian in .44 Russian running black powder.

JW.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: ShiftyJake on November 12, 2018, 10:30:11 pm
Can't get here soon enough.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on December 21, 2018, 12:21:23 am
Interesting for sure. I wonder if they copied the hammer actuated bolt one or the trigger actuated bolt model?  ???  As well, I wonder if they copied the original rack & pinion extractor or got lazy and just slapped in the later Schofield one as they are already tooled up for it?  ??? Regardless, it will win on style points as it was the first large cal. metallic ctg. production American made revolver having gone on sale to the public in the latter part of 1870 when Colt was fiddle farting around with the Thuer.  ;)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Dave T on December 21, 2018, 09:02:33 am
I don't believe the Model 3 was ever chambered for the 44 WCF, for the same reason the Schofield wasn't chambered for the 45 Colt. The cylinder was too short. and that resulted from the original No3 being chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, the shorter older brother to the 44 Special.

If this new gun (or figment of Uberti's imagination) is chambered for the 44 Special it is no more authentic than their Schofield, in that they both have longer cylinders than the originals.

Dave
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on December 21, 2018, 09:33:08 am

Well Golly Gosh Dave T., 

Authenticity is such a fickle mistriss.  If the Smith Replicants were dead authentic, then the unwashed masses would all be complaining because they weren't being made in 45 Colt, not 44-40 and why wasn't Uberti making them with an extended cylinder.  Nobody is ever satisfied.  What's wrong with "Don't worry ..... Be Happy".  After all, maybe Cimarron won't introduce the thing, and Uberti won't make the thing for retail on this side of the pond.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Drydock on December 21, 2018, 09:48:39 am
I also have a Uberti Schofield, a 5" .45, and using Big Lube bullets (I have the 250 grain PRS mold) with the S&W case it runs just fine with OE 3f Black.  Fine combination with my .45 Henry.  (lube is olive oil and old church candle stubs)

Just an observation: the continuous popularity of the .45 Colt round was one of the contributing factors in the creation of CAS and the modern cowboy shooting genre.  Even should CAS completely die off it will still be a popular seller.  It simply makes no economic sense to create a large frame vintage reproduction that does not accommodate this round.   We are a Niche market, and compromises must be made and accepted.

Or you'll get nothing, and like it!

(FWIW, my shaved 1915 Webley MK V loves BP in a .45 ACP/Auto Rim case.)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on December 21, 2018, 10:08:04 am

I fear, were I to set foot inna church to abscond with the candle Stubbs, I would suddenly find myself with a profusion of well seasoned ceiling beams.  Not I.  Nope.  Perhaps is some kindly soul were to bring them out ............  ::)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Drydock on December 21, 2018, 10:44:28 am
It helps if ya volenteers to help clean said church.  There's always a box of stubs to be thrown away.  An at least fer us Catholics, they have to be beeswax.  (Church law says they has to be of "natural" materials)

Perhaps if you was to make friends with some well meaning if naieve church lady . . .
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Trailrider on December 21, 2018, 11:53:21 am
I don't believe the Model 3 was ever chambered for the 44 WCF, for the same reason the Schofield wasn't chambered for the 45 Colt. The cylinder was too short. and that resulted from the original No3 being chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, the shorter older brother to the 44 Special.

If this new gun (or figment of Uberti's imagination) is chambered for the 44 Special it is no more authentic than their Schofield, in that they both have longer cylinders than the originals.

Dave
The New Model #3 was chambered in .44-40 and .38-40, with the cylinder and IIRC the frame lengthened accordingly. I saw an original in .44-40 BLOWN UP!!! by a shooter who was using smokeless reloads from a "friend".  :o :'(  Unfortunately, I was not permitted to examine his remaining loads or the gun, so can't say what caused the damage.  It has been quite a few years ago, but I seem to recall he fired two rounds that impacted about 10 feet in front of the muzzle.  It could have been a double charge or "premature shot-start", a phenomenon where insufficient crimp and case tension on the bullet allows the slug to jump into the forcing cone before the smokeless powder is burning stably (5,000-7,000 psi). When the bullet stops, the pressures increase exponentially until the case ruptures, allowing flame to cut through the cylinder walls!  Regardless, it was a real shame that a fairly rare gun (on a few thousand NM#3's were made in the longer rounds) was ruined.  :(
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Dave T on December 21, 2018, 04:50:25 pm
Trailrider,

I stand (or in this case set)  corrected. I did not know that. All the originals I've seen were the shorter cylinder models.

Coffinmaker,

You took me way to seriously. I was trying to answer a question (to which it turns out I had the wrong information) and simply making an observation. Perhaps you need to stay off the strong coffee for a while (smile)

Dave
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on December 21, 2018, 11:59:06 pm
Having shot two actual REAL American Models I can assure you that no one will be "gaming" in CAS with one. They are a rather large revolver and ungainly for fast cocking. Most buyers will be buying one either for historical reasons and get one chambered in .44 Russian as there were Old Old Model Russians (collector nomenclature) chambered in that round and I have a friend who has a 2nd Model American chambered in .44 Russian!! We figure it was a factory cleanout using an excess Russian cylinder. The second set of buyers will be those who just simply want one and will want one in their favorite chambering, e.g., .45 Colt & 44-40. They will probably not shoot it much just for the reason I listed in my second sentence above. It was a novel breakthrough at the time, but fast shootin' it ain't.  ;)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on December 22, 2018, 01:03:03 pm
S&W produces several of the long cylinder variations of their revolver. All are within the New Model #3's or the DA variation sometime after 1881 when the DA was introduced.
Non of the earlier models of the "New Model's" (types) were produced with the long cylinder. These earlier models were chambered in .44 Henry rim fire, .44 S&W (American) or .44 Russian.
"New Model" (types including the DA's and "Target Models" will be chambered in .32-44 and 38-44 "Target", .38-40 and .44-40 (WCF) in both the SA and DA revolvers.
So why not the .45 Colt in either the S&W or Winchester? They could have!
It was because of the small rim dia. of the older style cartridge cases of the .45 Colt. Extracting a fired case was simply not reliable!
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on December 24, 2018, 09:04:53 pm
The new model 3 was chambered in 44wcf, a lot of these repros cant be authentic since a lot of the ammo they were originally chambered for aren't around no more. So if the cylinder is a little bit lengthen, so what?
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on December 24, 2018, 11:13:23 pm
...So if the cylinder is a little bit lengthen, so what?

Because they will probably do just what ASM & Uberti did with the Schofield in lengthening the cylinder for .45 Colt:  eliminate the gas collar that is so desperately needed to fire real BP. S&W lengthened their gas collar THREE times during Model 3 manufacture in the 1800's for that very reason, i.e., fouling issues.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Driftwood Johnson on January 02, 2019, 11:42:31 pm
Howdy

I can tell you that since the new American Model is advertised as being chambered for 44-40 and 45 Colt, it will probably suffer the same problems as the other replica S&W #3 Top Breaks. In order to fit the longer cylinder for those cartridges into a non-lengthened frame, the gas bushing at the front of the cylinder had to be shortened.

Some shooters may get away with BP in their replica S&W Top Breaks, but generally speaking they tend to bind up after not too many shots.

Perhaps this would be a good time for a bit of an explanation of the five distinct Top Break S&W revolvers that were all built on the #3 sized frame.

This is the one that started it all, the one Cimarron is going to introduce, the American Model.

To me the identifying features are the almost straight up and down grip shape, and the long extractor housing under the barrel.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/American/11025208_5_zps4f771678.jpg)




The history is that the Rollin White patent, which patented the idea of boring a chamber completely through a cylinder so that cartridges could be fired, was about to expire. S&W had an exclusive licensing agreement with Rollin White, no other American manufacturer could legally produce a revolver that had the chambers bored straight through for cartridges. Starting in 1857 S&W began producing small Tip Up revolvers using bored through chambers. These small revolvers were only chambered for 22 and 32 rimfire cartridges. The first one produced, was called the No. 1. It was a tiny seven shot revolver firing what we would call today the 22 Short cartridge. In 1861 S&W made a larger 32 Rimfire Tip Up and called it the No. 2. It had six chambers and fired a 32 Rimfire cartridge. While not as powerful as the percussion revolvers of the day, it had the advantage of being much quicker to reload. In 1865 S&W made a slightly smaller five shot 32 Rimfire Tip Up that could be more easily concealed than the No. 2. Since the numbers 1 and 2 were already taken, S&W decided to call the new version the No. 1 1/2.

This photo shows the comparative sizes of, bottom to top, a No. 1 Tip Up, a No. 1 1/2 Tip Up, a No. 2 Tip Up, and a Number 3 Top Break Russian model.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/Tip%20Ups/Tip%20Ups%20and%20Russian_zpseucpz9nr.jpg)




So that's where the number 3 came from. I should hasten to add that there were five separate and distinct models built on the #3 size frame. When somebody says to me they have a Number 3, I always ask them exactly which model they are taking about. Roy Jinks, the official S&W historian once said that when the Clint Eastwood movie The Unforgiven came out, with its emphasis on the Schofield Model, he got a lot of calls from people who thought they had a Schofield. Many of them did not.

Back to the history for a moment. The White patent was due to expire in 1869. White tried to get it renewed, but failed. Daniel Wesson was convinced all the other revolver makers were waiting with baited breath for the patent to expire so they could hit the market with their own revolvers with cylinders bored through for cartridges. So he (or maybe the designers he employed) went to work to come up with something completely new. It was the American Model. Unlike the Colt and Remington cartridge conversions, which were basically simple updates of the earlier percussion models, the concept of a Top Break was it could be broken open, rotating the barrel down, and the empty cartridges could be automatically ejected. Then while the gun was still broken open, it could be reloaded. A very innovative idea.

As it turned out, Colt did not bring out the Single Action Army until 1873, and Remington did not bring out their Model 1875 until, well 1875. So S&W pretty much had the large frame cartridge revolver market all to themselves for a few years.

The American Model was the first cartridge revolver purchased by the US Army. In 1870 1000 were delivered to the Army.

A word here about the length of the cylinder on Top Break Smiths. A few American Models were chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge. However most were chambered for the 44 S&W American cartridge, a round using a heeled bullet. This cartridge was pretty much a centerfire version of the Henry round. A relatively short round, it turned out that a cylinder 1 7/16" long was a perfect match for the 44 S&W American round. Although I do not have an American Top Break revolver in my collection (yet) whose bore I can slug, I have a couple of the cartridges. The bullets run about .430 in diameter, and are the same diameter as the case, being a heeled bullet.




In 1871 Russian Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich (son of the Czar) made a grand tour of the United States. He went on a hunting expedition with the likes of Buffalo Bill and General Custer. At some point he became enthralled with the S&W Top Break American model. The Russian government was looking for a modern revolver for their Army and concluded a contract with S&W for 2000 revolvers. These revolvers looked exactly the same as the American Model, except they were chambered for a new cartridge. Unlike the 44 S&W American, the new cartridge used a bullet that was the same diameter as the inside of the case. This new cartridge became known as the 44 Russian cartridge.

Smith and Wesson eventually built over 150,000 revolvers for the Russian government. The later two versions featured the distinctive hump on the grip as well as the spur on the trigger guard.

This is a 2nd Model Russian. It features the big hump on the grip, and the spur on the trigger guard. Notice the extractor housing is slightly shorter than the extractor housing of the American Model. The cylinders on the Russian models were also 1 7/16" long, still perfect for the 44 Russian cartridge. I can state from experience that the big hump on the grip frame makes it very awkward to cock and fire this revolver one handed.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/Russian/Russian02.jpg)




The Russian model had a new feature on the latch. There was a shelf on the underside of the latch. There was a mating relief in the hammer. With the hammer all the way forward, the cylinder remained locked in position, and the cut in the hammer for the shelf on the latch prevented the latch from being opened.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/Russian/hammerdown.jpg)




With the hammer at half cock, the cylinder was free to rotate and the latch could be opened for loading.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/Russian/halfcock.jpg)





The Schofield Model. Easily identified by the completely rounded grip shape, the shorter still  extractor housing, and of course, the frame mounted latch.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/my%20schofield/Schofield%20SN%202254%2001_zpszxqiqyow.jpg)



George Schofield was a cavalry officer who liked the American model, but he was able to modify the latch on one so that a mounted soldier could break one open and reload with one hand while riding. Breaking open the earlier Top Breaks was pretty much a two handed operation. One hand held the frame while the other hand operated the latch with the thumb and rotated the barrel down to load. With Schofield's serpentine shaped latch on the frame, the mounted rider could pop the latch with his thumb and brush the barrel open against his leg. Then he could shift the gun to his reins hand and reload. I don't know one end of a horse from the other, but I can load a Schofield that way, although I would probably sweep everybody at the loading table if I tried it at a CAS match.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/my%20schofield/Latch%20Open_zpsbmmd2hji.jpg)




Schofield was clever enough to patent his latch mechanism, and crafty old Daniel Wesson set his engineers to finding a way around Schofield's patent, so he would not have to pay any royalties. They did not succeed and Wesson could not get around Schofield's patent. The Schofield model was only in production from 1875 until 1877. There were two models, there were a little over 3000 of the first models made, and about 6,000 of the second models made. The chief difference was in the shape of the latch. The Schofield pictured above is a 1st Model.

Colt had landed a contract for 8,000 Single Action revolvers in 1874, and S&W did not want to be left out. The Army specified they wanted a 45 caliber cartridge for any new revolvers, not 44. Opening up the chambers and bore of their Top Breaks slightly to 45 caliber was not a problem, but a 1 7/16" long cylinder could not accommodate the 45 Colt cartridge. With lucrative foreign contracts for the Russian model, S&W was not going to change the tooling for a longer cylinder. Instead they proposed the shorter 45 caliber cartridge that eventually became the 45 Schofield cartridge.




The New Model Number Three.

In 1878, S&W cataloged what I believe to be their finest Top Break #3 revolver, the New Model Number Three.

Eventually chambered for 17 different cartridges, this model also had a 1 7/16" long cylinder. The most common chambering was 44 Russian. Easily recognized by the very short extractor housing, and the slight hump on the grip. Some of these, particularly for export to Japan had a trigger guard spur like the Russian model, but those produced for domestic consumption usually did not.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/My%20New%20Model%20Number%20Three/new%20model%20number%20three%2002_zpsczb4qqj3.jpg)




In 1885 a version with a 1 9/16" long cylinder was created specifically for the longer 44-40 cartridge. S&W also lengthened the frame by 1/8" so the very important gas collar at the front of the cylinder did not need to be shortened. S&W knew how to design a revolver that would fire Black Powder cartridges with out any problems. This model was given the specific model name of New Model Number Three Frontier. There were only 2072 of this model made, and 786 were converted to 44 Russian for sale to Japan.

There were also 74 New Model Number Threes made with the 1 9/16" cylinder chambered for 38-40. These are usually known as the New Model Number Three .38 Winchester. They are very rare.




The 44 Double Action.

The fifth type of S&W No. 3 Top Break was the 44 Double Action. This was the only double action Top Break S&W built on the #3 sized frame. Easily recognized because it is a double action. The most common chambering for this model was again 44 Russian, with a 1 7/16" long cylinder. The trigger guard and trigger are very distinctly shaped too. This one is a target model with a target front sight and a windage adjustable rear sight.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/DA%2044%20Nickel/nickel44DA01_zpsaef44d59.jpg)




There were about 15,000 of these made chambered for 44-40, with a 1 9/16" long cylinder and the lengthened frame.

There were also 276 made chambered for 38-40, with the 1 9/16" cylinder and lengthened frame.




Gas Bushings

Since I have blabbed this long, indulge me a moment more for some photos of gas bushings on S&W Top Break cylinders.

This is a Schofield cylinder. The part protruding from the front of the cylinder is the gas collar or bushing. It is a separate piece pressed into the cylinder. The bushing sits about .180 proud of the front face of the cylinder. The extractor rod and extractor spring run the full length of the cylinder, inside the bushing.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/my%20schofield/cylinder_zps67806ff8.jpg)





In this photo I have lined up the cylinder with the cylinder arbor. Notice the helical groove cut around the arbor.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/my%20schofield/schofieldcylinderframeassembly01_zpscd6c6b19.jpg)




In this photo I have slid the cylinder partially onto the arbor. The bushing rides outside the arbor, while the extractor rod and spring ride inside the arbor.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/my%20schofield/schofieldcylinderframeassembly02_zps82264c55.jpg)




In this photo, the cylinder is completely seated on the arbor. The front of the bushing is bearing against the bottom of the barrel. This means the barrel/cylinder gap is about .180 horizontally removed from the front of the bushing. When Black Powder fouling is blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap it is blasted out pretty much in the shape of a disk. The front of the bushing is far enough away from the b/c gap, that the underlying cylinder arbor is shielded from fouling blasted out of the gap. So very little fouling makes its way onto the arbor. BP fouling deposited on the arbor is the chief reason for binding with revolvers fired with Black Powder. Also, the helical groove cut on the arbor provides clearance for any fouling that does make its way onto the arbor, also preventing binding. With Big Lube bullets with huge lube grooves full of a BP compatible bullet lube, and plenty of Ballistol on the arbor, I can shoot my top Break Smiths with Black Powder cartridges all day long without any binding.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/my%20schofield/schofieldcylinderframeassembly03_zpse5dc8b74.jpg)




Here is a close up of the horizontal separation of the barrel/cylinder gap and bushing on my New Model Number Three.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Black%20Powder%20Bushings/BarrelCylinderGap_zpse6459379.jpg)




Compare that with the horizontal separation on this Uberti Schofield. Yes, the cylinder is not seated all the way, but you can see how much of the bushing was stolen away when Uberti lengthened the cylinder for 45 Colt without lengthening the frame a corresponding amount.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Black%20Powder%20Bushings/ubertibushingunmodified_zps05cbcfa7.jpg)




There is nothing new about this idea of horizontal separation of the barrel/cylinder gap from the front of a cylinder. Take a look some time at a Colt, and Uberti Cattlleman, or even a Ruger Vaquero. They all have a sizeable bushing on the front of the cylinder and they can all be made to shoot Black Powder well without binding.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on January 03, 2019, 12:09:58 am
It helps if ya volenteers to help clean said church.  There's always a box of stubs to be thrown away.  An at least fer us Catholics, they have to be beeswax.  (Church law says they has to be of "natural" materials)

Perhaps if you was to make friends with some well meaning if naieve church lady . . .

My Orthodox church recycles the beeswax candle stubbs. I don't burn candles, but drop a few extra bucks in the collection plate instead. As a former church treasurer, I know how much we spent on those suckers.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on January 03, 2019, 07:56:48 am
Driftwood Johnson,

Very well done! Thanks.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Tornado on January 03, 2019, 10:16:14 am
Great response from Driftwood!

In a nice coincidence, I just got this email from Cimarron:
Continuing our tradition of re-introducing legendary firearms, Cimarron now offers the Model No. 3 American, First Model, made from an original in the Cimarron Collection. It was a long road in development with Uberti due to tooling delays and required changes. We went through a few prototype iterations, turning down some unacceptable attempts, sending Uberti back to the drawing board. No corners were cut in reproducing this Cimarron replica. It's as close to the original as possible, yet it is capable of handling modern factory smokeless ammunition in such popular cowboy rounds as .45 Colt, .44-40, .44 S&W Russian and .44 Special. Cimarron's Model No.3 American features such details as the early 1st Model frame and grip, the correct-style case colored top latch, trigger guard and hammer. Grips are period, two-piece walnut and the sixgun is offered in blued finish or nickel (both with the color cased parts as described). Civilian or military models are available. Military revolvers are martially marked with the U.S. markings, inspector stamps and a grip cartouche. The detail is perfect.  In the end the Uberti crew came through for Cimarron, producing what may be the finest replica produced, ever, by anyone.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on January 03, 2019, 10:31:45 am
 Good stuff here guys. I wonder if they'll have any safety features on them?

  CHT
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on January 03, 2019, 05:34:28 pm
CHT, they have to to get them into the States. Just remains to be seen what kind. Dang, now I have to consider a military model as well? This just gets more expensive all the time. Oh well, can't have too much of a good thing. Hmmm, military or civilian nickle first? I wonder if the military will have the oil hole on it?  ;D
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on January 03, 2019, 05:44:02 pm
Driftwood Johnson

Thanks for the schooling,,
A  tip of the hat to ya. ;)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on January 03, 2019, 07:57:47 pm
Driftwood always has the best pics.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Books OToole on January 04, 2019, 08:14:12 am
An excellent No. 3 tutorial.

Books
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Dave T on January 04, 2019, 08:52:25 am
An excellent No. 3 tutorial.

Books

DITTO!

Dave
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Will Ketchum on January 04, 2019, 09:59:36 am
Driftwood, I will add my appreciation. If Books approves then you did an outstanding presentation.

Will Ketchum the foremost lover of the New model No. 3
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on January 04, 2019, 10:28:53 am
 ??? There must be something wrong with me (yeah, I know). I've always preferred the grips on the American and the Schofield to the New Model. Everyone always tells me how comfortable the New Model grip is, but, to me anyway, it's not. And I don't have large hands either. Guess that's why they make the older models, not all of us are the same.  :-\
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on January 06, 2019, 10:45:36 pm
Driftwood, the myth of the early .44 Russian cartridges having an inside lubed bullet refuses to die even though ammo collectors have stated that they weren't.

In U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns 1795-1975 by Charles R. Suydam, he states that early .44 Russian factory loads used 275 gr. outside lubed bullets over 23 gr. of black powder. It also states that by about 1888 most factory ammunition had become loaded with inside lubricated bullets of 246 gr. over the same BP load. As well, one can go here & see the early cartridges if you scroll down:

http://www.oldammo.com/september04.htm

The story was that a famous revolver target shooter (W. Bennett or Ira Paine, can't recall offhand) in the 1880's remarked to one of the cartridge cos. about fouling issues with his target .44 and they soon switched over to inside lubed bullets. That was in an early 2000's Handloader magazine history of the cartridge by a renowned collector. I have that issue buried somewhere, but I can't recall the month/year offhand.  ???

One thing the Russian inspectors at the S&W factory insisted upon, and which Colt "borrowed" for their SAA, was the breech face recoil plate due to peening issues. Smart Russkies.  ;)

FWIW, the first inside lubed metallic ctg. was the .50 Springfield Carbine round, better known today as the 56-50 Spencer and that was in 1865 according to Roy Marcot.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Driftwood Johnson on January 07, 2019, 10:22:56 am
Howdy Fox Creek Kid

I was pretty careful not to mention where the lube was when I wrote about the 44 Russian cartridge. Probably because you had probably corrected me once before.

I have most of a box of Remington (marked REM-UMC) 44 Russians, and a bag full of WRACo 44 Russians, along with a few other singletons picked up along the way.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/44%20Russian%20Ammo_zpsiel3exn2.jpg)




Sorry this photo is not so well focused. The WRACo round is on the left, the REM-UMC on the right.

Both appear to me to be inside lubricated.

But I'm sure you're correct about the earlier rounds.

There are a couple of fired cases in the Remington box. They are clearly balloon head rounds.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/44%20Russian%20WRACo%20left%20REM-UMC%20right_zpsoowowqyg.jpg)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on January 07, 2019, 10:27:06 am
DJ thanks for all the info here, it's interesting and invaluable. I'd hazard a guess that give the way you deal with these subjects and going over ever tiny details of revolvers and cartridges, you must have an engineering background.

  CHT
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on January 07, 2019, 12:06:08 pm
My understanding is that the Russians requested the ammo change from .44 American (outsized lube bullet) to the inside lube "Russian" style very early within S&W's production for them, and the large number of arms they were ordering from S&W, Smith was happy to comply for the same reason.


S&W's first offering to the US Gov. was in the .44 (Henry) rim fire. These were rejected. The US Army wanted a center fire. So, in hopes of getting a USA contract, Smith devoloped what became known as the .44-100 "American" centerfire. It was believed that centerfire cases would be easier for Armorers to reload and save on cost to the Gov.
US orders never amounted to much, but Smith kept the American chambering available

I can't quot were this "understanding" of mine comes from off hand... but I believe it is disscused in the Neal & Jinks book.

My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Driftwood Johnson on January 08, 2019, 01:20:55 am
DJ thanks for all the info here, it's interesting and invaluable. I'd hazard a guess that give the way you deal with these subjects and going over ever tiny details of revolvers and cartridges, you must have an engineering background.

  CHT

Pretty much. No degree, just lots of work experience.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on January 13, 2019, 05:28:11 pm
Gave Cimarron a call last week and was told that the only hold up was getting the ok from the ATF to bring them into the country..They figure they will be on the shelves by June starting with the 45colt  models coming out first,,Other calibers will follow sometime around Sept.
Asked about price and was told (around $1100)

Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on January 13, 2019, 06:12:15 pm
Usually for a new Uberti model, Mike Harvey will send them an original, but I'm pretty darn sure he didn't this time!



Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Niederlander on January 13, 2019, 07:01:50 pm
Always loved that particular revolver!  Cottonwood Springs is right here in Nebraska!
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on January 23, 2019, 08:56:37 am
Unless I missed it somewhere I don't see the American Model at Cimarron's booth for the SHOT Show. Abilene, what gives?  ??? ???
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on January 23, 2019, 10:26:41 am
Unless I missed it somewhere I don't see the American Model at Cimarron's booth for the SHOT Show. Abilene, what gives?  ??? ???

Beats me.  This is my 2nd year of not going to Shot Show, so I'm out of the loop on some stuff.  I see A.D.Texaz or Shootin' Steele at Texican Ranger matches and ask them.   :)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Tornado on January 23, 2019, 12:15:57 pm
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/01/saddle-up-them-ponies-and-visit-cimarron-firearms-at-the-2019-shot-show/#axzz5dSJeq57J (https://www.ammoland.com/2019/01/saddle-up-them-ponies-and-visit-cimarron-firearms-at-the-2019-shot-show/#axzz5dSJeq57J)

This article mentions it:
Quote
Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/01/saddle-up-them-ponies-and-visit-cimarron-firearms-at-the-2019-shot-show/#ixzz5dSKAXC8x
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Cimarron’s Model #3 for 2019 is the 1st Model American in 45 Colt, 44-40 and 44 Special, Colt & Russian. The Military marked Army model also has inspector marks and a cartouche. Comes in an 8” or 5” barrel. The Model #3 American can be purchased in a blued or nickel finish with case colored latch, trigger guard and hammer. A civilian model will be available as well. MSRP is $1,163.50
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on January 23, 2019, 10:46:53 pm
A nickel plated one would be sweet
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on May 12, 2019, 11:42:42 pm
A nickel plated one would be sweet

Well, here it is nickel plated AND engraved!!  ;D  ;)  Go to the 1:50 mark. As well he calls it a "Schofield", but it's the new American Model:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdewE9QHWzQ
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on May 13, 2019, 12:05:15 pm
From what I can see in the video... I'm very impressed with what has been done with this new S&W brake top revolver. I would feel much better about investing in this revolver now that I have seen this.
 I would not worry too much about it being called a 'Schofield", after all, many Americans call any and every large frame "type" S&W brake top revolver a "Schofield"! (bad on US)
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on May 23, 2019, 12:28:13 am
More info:


Quote
Cimarron?s Model #3 for 2019 is the 1st Model American in 45 Colt, 44-40 and 44 Special, Colt & Russian. The Military marked Army model also has inspector marks and a cartouche. Comes in an 8? or 5? barrel. The Model #3 American can be purchased in a blued or nickel finish with case colored latch, trigger guard and hammer. A civilian model will be available as well. MSRP is $1,163.50.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/01/saddle-up-them-ponies-and-visit-cimarron-firearms-at-the-2019-shot-show/#axzz5oirWxuHY
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Blair on May 23, 2019, 11:10:33 am
FCK,

Do you know if the statement of being the "1st Model American" is in respect to the first model to be reproduced of this type S&W Revolver, or that they are actually reproducing a Model # 3 1st Model American?
Thanks!
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on May 23, 2019, 11:24:44 am
FCK,

Do you know if the statement of being the "1st Model American" is in respect to the first model to be reproduced of this type S&W Revolver, or that they are actually reproducing a Model # 3 1st Model American?
Thanks!
My best,
 Blair


Like all repros it is not going to be a perfect "clone" of an original I am sure. We will have to wait & see when one gets into the hands of a competent reviewer who can do a SxS with an original (Venturino, Chicoine, etc.). Regardless, it will be the ONLY clone of one ever made. Your only other option is buying/shooting an original.

This Uberti version does have the smaller trigger boss imitating the 1st Model American "flat bottom". Since Uberti doesn't use recoil plates on any clone that will be correct for this model as that didn't come into being until later per the Russians.

At least Cimarron/Uberti is trying to please us in this time of a dwindling CAS market that is a shell of what it was in 2000.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: DeaconKC on June 06, 2019, 09:35:10 pm
I too, am looking forward to this coming out. I do want to point out one thing regarding the "purity" of the lengthening of the cylinder. There is a large majority of shooters out there who will never consider shooting black powder, so the decision to make it longer to accept today's rounds vs the ability to run on bp is good business, and allows us to shoot these guns today.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on July 16, 2019, 06:40:54 am
So, we're now half way thru July, anyone seen one of these yet? ???
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on July 16, 2019, 09:55:13 am
Last time I talked to one of the Cimarron guys, he told me it was probably going to be next year.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: The Pathfinder on July 16, 2019, 10:45:04 am
Ok, gives my kids more time to raise the money so I don't have to pay for my own retirement present. ;D

Hey, I can dream can't I? ::)
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: nativeshootist on July 18, 2019, 10:42:48 pm
But that's what they said last year
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on August 20, 2019, 11:05:48 pm
Gave Cimarron a call last week and was told that the only hold up was getting the ok from the ATF to bring them into the country..They figure they will be on the shelves by June starting with the 45colt



Got my name on the list ...Still sitting here by the phone. :-\
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on October 05, 2019, 10:12:29 pm
ANNNNNNND ,,,still waiting.. :-\
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on October 16, 2019, 09:22:03 pm
Here she is!!  :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aSHgw7qNxA
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Abilene on October 16, 2019, 09:41:10 pm
Dang, at least wipe the fingerprints off the gun!   ;D
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: willy on October 17, 2019, 07:34:30 pm
That video is from March 2019,,,I talked to Cimarron and they said they would be here by June 2019,,Put my name on a list,,,Still waiting. :(
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Major 2 on October 18, 2019, 02:05:30 am
Just another 60 days   ??? ...I've been down that rabbit hole...

and another 60,  and another etc.   obviously they exist , Uberti would love to see the profit roll in as would Cimarron....

Probably sitting in limbo...betwixt  US customs  , Tariffs ,  and Feds Regulations  yada yada

I'd like one but my Jets have cooled some in the wait
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 18, 2019, 10:28:32 am

Maybe with a 3 1/2 inch barrel and set up for Moon Clips.  Maybe.  Maybe not.
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Dave T on October 18, 2019, 10:29:46 am
Has anyone noticed that the original post was in October of 2018. I just checked the calendar and it is October of 2019. Good thing they aren't rushing this into production prematurely (smile).

With tongue planted firmly in cheek,
Dave
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 18, 2019, 10:38:44 am

 :o  CONSIDERING   :o  Considering NONE of Uberti's offerings based on the Schofield/S & W Top Breaks will play nice and share toys with BP or Subs ......................................
Title: Re: Cimarron's new American model!
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on October 18, 2019, 07:23:47 pm
FWIW, a European on another forum handled one of these and shared that Uberti did not copy the original's rack & pinion ejection system, but rather opted to use their current Schofield system.