1860 Pietta Kirst & R&D conversion cylinder installation?

[Ironbadger]

Hi there.

While not new to shooting, I am new to the board here, so I thought after looking for info I'd ask for some advice.

I have two model 1860 .44 Pietta colt army revolvers, and have both a R&D gunshop drop in 5 shot 2 piece cylinder, and a Kirst
gated conversion for the same model for my second gun.

Both have the same issue; the cylinders once put into place will not turn when an attempt is made to cock the hammer.

Best as I am able to determine, the hand for the 6 shot percussion cylinder is too long by a tiny amount for the 5 shot cylinder ratchet, and catches on the face of the ratchet instead of slipping under it to engage and rotate the cylinder.


This is guesswork, but seems solid enough from what I can observe.

My guess is that the fix is to carefully shorten the hand by a fraction until the top slips under the ratchet and can push up instead of into the face of the ratchet.

Am I correct in this assumption?
Has anyone else done this fitting to make either or both drop in cylinders work?

If its the length of the hand, then its an easy fix- I can buy replacement hands for experimenting cheaply enough, as thats a $5 part...
But if the length of the hand is not the issue-
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?


I plan to post updates after doing the fitting work for both cylinders to both guns once I have this worked out.

Also,
I was planning to shoot cowboy loaded .45 schofield ammo in my converted Piettas- what I have is Black Hills on hand.
Not black powder loaded, but the cowboy load smokeless- which should be okay in modern replicas, I would assume due to its low velocity?

Any advice? Or is this a bad idea?

I also intend to dovetail the fronts of the barrels for taller front sights, and I am toying with the idea of dovetailed rear sights set over the rear of the barrel just forward of the breach end to get away from the annoying hammer face rear sight.
  I recall once seeing an original cartridge conversion colt 1860 that had a similarly rigged rear sight and a bobbed hammer.
(A second or third model Richards conversion, I believe- though it might well have been a field conversion done by some local gunsmith.)

The idea is similar to the small sight ears on the barrel of the 1872 open top colt, and I figure it might be better for shooting with my eyes as they are now.



Thanks.

-Badger-

[Ironbadger]

Well, I got bored last night and decided to give it a go.

The hands were indeed the main issue; shortening both by little more than the thickness of a playing card caused the hands to drop enough to grab the ratchets and advance the cylinders on both the two piece R&D cylinder and the Kirst gated conversion kit. (Did I read somewhere that most italian hands are too long in the first place?)

I also found the forcing cones needed some minor- and I do mean minor- filing, then gentle polishing to allow the cylinders on both to rotate freely.
More cutting might prove necessary later on- firing the guns will show whether theres enough clearance; but I think I can be forgiven my conservative attitude for the moment, as I do not currently have a set of headspace gauges to check them right now, and have given them just enough room to rotate freely without binding.

I'll need to harden the hands too- both are clearly too soft for the hard ratchet steel at the moment, and the R&D one is already showing galling on the hand tip.
(both are set aside until I get my torch back from my buddy who borrowed it to loosen some bolts...about 6 months ago.)

Next step is to cut the channel in the recoil shield of the Kirst gun, and blue the cut.

Pics later on, when I have something to post.

-Badger-

[Deadeye Dick]

Ironbadger,
Let us know how the channel cut in the recoil shield came out. I've thought about trying to do one myself, but am concerned about screwing it up. So much for self confidence. Will be looking forward to your pic's.
Deadeye Dick

[Bull Schmitt]

You might want to rethink the hardening of the hand. If the hand is harder than the cylinder it will wear the cylinder. It is easier/cheaper to replace a worn hand than a worn cylinder.

[Ironbadger]

In this case, the hand is so soft it is galling from the cylinder immediately.

I used to be a knifemaker back in the day, so I plan to do a tempering job that will get the hand just hard enough to stop the galling issue, but not enough to risk damaging the ratchet. 


Most likely will not have time to cut the channel before the weekend, but that is the next step once I have my borrowed tools back in my hands again...

Then theres making a wedge to fill in the dovetail left from removing the latch for the rammer.
I have seen some original cartridge conversions that used a piece of brass to fill this in- but I think I'll dig in the scrap pile for a piece of steel to make that from.


-Badger-

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Hey, Badger - Howdy!

Sounds like you have things pretty well in hand! 

I like your idea about tempering the part "just enough" to get it working.