Re: Guns as investments.

[RRio]

WBR, we're all familiar with the arguments about Colts being worth more and I shouldn't respond but here I go anyway.  I'm not convinced that new/used Colts will be worth significantly, or even any, more that a USFA.  As Colt writes, don't shoot their pistols or they will drop in value.  Used USFAs seem to fare at least as well in re-sale as used Colts, and may be easier to sell because you are pretty much guarenteed a well made pistol.  With Colt you are not - they've had their documented problems.  That's speculation, but so is the fact that in 20 years a 2007 Colt will be worth more than a 2007 Pre-War USFA.

HERE, HERE!!  Bartender, buy that man a drink, on me!!  

[North Bender]

.... If you're a collector buy a new Colt. If you're a shooter buy a USFA or other clone of your choice.

I'm a collector.  And a shooter.  And I completely reject the notion that a Pre-War USFA is not collectable.

[Fox Creek Kid]

... I completely reject the notion that a Pre-War USFA is not collectable.

You may reject it but I know of know one who will buy a used USFA for more money than originally paid. I wouldn't. They are great guns. They are made better than Colt today. However, so is a new Chevy as opposed to one made in 1950. Which is worth more to a collector? You cannot make them into something they just simply are not. Investing is about cold hard logic and not emotion.

[Fox Creek Kid]

IMHO, guns are not much of investment. The returns are too low.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Example, a Winchester 1 of 1000 bought in say 1950 and sold today would probably outdo 99.99% of most stocks over the same period. "Blue chip" guns are good investments. The problem is that most of us cannot afford the really big "chips" any more. The safest bets in gun buying are 1st Gen. Colts and 19th century Winchesters. Rarity & condition is everything. 

[Doc Sunrise]

I have seen a study done where investments in firearms did return better than the stock market.  Remember, a collectible is anything that is limited in number.  USFA already has such items. 

[North Bender]

You may reject it but I know of know one who will buy a used USFA for more money than originally paid. I wouldn't. They are great guns. They are made better than Colt today. However, so is a new Chevy as opposed to one made in 1950. Which is worth more to a collector? You cannot make them into something they just simply are not. Investing is about cold hard logic and not emotion.

But nobody will buy a new Colt that has been fired - or even unfired - for more than what was paid for it!! 

My comment was made earlier in response to the person who wrote "if you want a collectable, buy a Colt".  I'm saying I don't think new Colts are any more collectable than a new premium USFA.  But as I wrote, that's speculation.

[RRio]

But nobody will buy a new Colt that has been fired - or even unfired - for more than what was paid for it!! 

My comment was made earlier in response to the person who wrote "if you want a collectable, buy a Colt".  I'm saying I don't think new Colts are any more collectable than a new premium USFA.  But as I wrote, that's speculation.

I absolutely agree with North Bender. Now, I'm gonna throw a curve in here.

You have  a lot of money in old guns, and the worst case scenario happens, Hilliary gets elected Prez and we are facing the same fate as Australia. What has happened to your investment now? Don't say it can't happen, we've all seen too much that we thought could happen in this country.

[Doc Sunrise]

Wars have begun for less. 

New Colts are not shot because their accuracy is usually nothing to talk about.

I like collecting firearms, and I have put away some nice USFA firearms because I know some time in the future when people admit that USFA firearms are tops, having some pristine ones to hand down to my son will be fun.  If you want to talk collectibility, a friend of mine is completely restoring a 67 Corvette with most of its original parts.  Its price tag is somewhere in the $180,000 range, definitely not a weekend car, but in the same shop was a similar looking Corvette that was an everyday vehicle going for $25,000.  And it rumbled.  It looked just like the collectible and it tore up the street.

Just food for thought.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I have seen USPFA Uberti parts guns being sold for more than they were originally sold for and have been shot.  A friend of mine had a 5.5" USPFA in .357 magnum nickel with fire blue appointments and US & Eagle grips new unfired in the box that he paid $525.00 for.  He sold it last year for $900.00 and the collector he sold it to was very happy because it was a rare variant of the early USPFA guns.

[Doc Sunrise]

There are USFA guns that have provenance already.  George Bush, Dick Cheney, Charlton Heston, and I almost forgot, us.  There are also USFA guns that meet the limited criteria as well as rare.  Uberti Parts guns, Black Powder guns, etc...  The seeds are being planted for "collectability" in the future.  I like "collectability" better than "investments" because "investments" creates the ora of returns, which can only happen upon resale.  That is something I hope I never have to do.  I couldn't do!

Also, with the debate of Colt vs. USFA heating up, thank you VG, I have come to the realization that the hardest critics of USFA firearms is us.  We demand top quality and USFA delivers. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Doc:  That is true since we would not be buying them if they didn't shine above the others in quality and historical accuracy.  BTW, have you ever seen how much those USPFA BP conversion or BP guns go for on Gunbroker or GunsAmerica?  They are way over what they were sold for and in some cases 3x the MSRP.  Price a China Camp sometime too and you will be shocked at how much folks want for them. I think the USFA collectible market is now out there and growing.  Remember the Great Westerns in the 50s and 60s how everyone said they were junk compared to Colt and how they were never going to be worth anything?  Price a nice one out and prepare to be shocked as they can be over $1000.00 NIB.

[Deadeye Don]

After reading this thread, I am feeling even better about my USFAs not realizing that was even possible.   

[Virginia Gentleman]

I think it will only get better from here especially if the quality remains high as it has been.  USFA also makes some very beatiful engraved and pedigreed guns with George W. Bush and Dick Cheney having presentation models made for them.  They are as good as anything Colt ever made for presentation.

[Doc Sunrise]

I have been observing a trend lately that USFA owners should be proud about.  Lately I have found myself being much more discriminate in my gun buying for my collection where I have found higher quality items through the big auction houses like Rock Island, Greg Martin, and Julia.  These particular auction houses are pretty good about picking estimated values to start prices at, and recently, I have noticed that USFA items are beginning to be priced within ranges that have been established for Colts.  This is a good showing for USFA. 

Furthermore, The Julia Auction of The Dr. Joseph Murphy Collection shows that Dr. Murphy has 5 USFA items up for auction, so far as this is only the first part of three auctions of his collection.  That is quite a compliment from such an outstanding National Collector.  His collection is of premier quality with some very highly priced items, and for USFA to be among these items is something to be talked about.

I would have to say that USFA is making a good stand for itself as investment grade firearms with only a 15 year history in the books.  USFA may not enjoy the Pony Premium, but they have a firm foothold as investments.

[drcook]

Sadly, collecting guns for future resale, is just exactly like collecting Lionel trains and cars for future
resale. The value in the future is entirely dependent on there being someone who wants to buy it,

We have all seen the drop in people that are associated with the shooting sports. I would bet that the
majority are age 50 or older. I keep trying to get my children involved, my son is to some degree, but
now I am hoping one of the grandchildren will carry on the tradition.

I have a really good friend who has at least $70,000 worth of Lionel trains squirreled away.  But if you
look at who is buying them, once again its people our age.  (of course I will advance the caveat that
there are rich people who will buy a new toy just to have it). And the new Camaros and Dodge
Challengers, ie: the reproduction muscle cars. Who are those geared towards ? Us.

One of the reason that our generation (give or take a few years) is so enamored with the SA revolvers
and lever guns is what we watched on TV. Now the kids see black plastic guns and or no guns at all.

I too have a goodly amount invested in firearms, and I know that within the next 10 years I could
probably sell my Sharps and Stevens 44 1/2's and get my money back, but after that its a crap shoot.

In order for something to have value, you have to have someone who it means something to.

This is just my opinion. And it could be entirely wrong.

dc

[Doc Sunrise]

I realize something only has value if there is a willing and able person to buy it.  I keep the auction catalogs and the prices realized after the auction to help evaluate my own collection.  This is the most current valuation coupled with written resources that I can come uip with.  I have also noticed that even though the economy is very rough, firearms auctions are hitting all time highs. 

Where I am torn is that collectors in general are looking for more and more firearms in pristine condition.  I love to also obtain NIB firearms, but I also love collecting firearms that show honest use with a history, one that can tell a story about our American heritage.  This is the area I feel is being disturbed.  Honest old firearms are being manipulated to represent themselves as more pristine firearms because unsrupulous people do exist only to cheat people out of their hard earned money.  This is another reason I only buy guns that I either order brand new or buy used from the more reputable auction houses like Julia, Greg Martin, and Rock Island.

[cleoleo]

Well fellas,
If you just got to have the pony stamped on it, then buy a Colt. If you're a "shooter", buy a USFA.  "Investments?"  "Collectables?"  I can see where that might appeal to some, but as for me, I'm a "shooter".   I look at it another way.....I shoot everything I own and can get my hands on. In another 100 years, we'll all be dead anyway. and it'll be someone else's problem.....Enjoy life.

[Doc Sunrise]

Well now, I love shoot'n as much as the next guy, but I have come across some rare USFA firearms that I am leaving in NIB. 

[cleoleo]

Doc,
Yer' just the kind of guy I like. You would not believe how many times I've gotten such beautiful specimens from the last fellow who "cherished, but never shot them  purdy guns".....
Last one was an older (NIB) USFA .45 China Camp model. Came in the box with all the paperwork and factory sight-in target. Shoots like a dream, sold for a song. You never really ever "own" anything. You're just a caretaker... enjoy life!

[Marshal Deadwood]

You never really ever "own" anything. You're just a caretaker...

That is the truth. I've been fortunate to have some really kewl 'loaners'....

MD