1876 Centenial, 1885 Hi Wall or Sharps ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

I am thinking about a big game,,longer range rifle than my 1873Win.

I will prob shoot BP,,but if one wanted a rifle to possible 'switch' between BP and smokeless....what would be your recommendations,,,,1885 Hi Wall/What calibre would be best ?

1876 Centinenal in what calibre ?

Sharpes in what calibre ?

Iv thought about 45-70 in the Sharpes and Hi Wall,,,does taht sound like a good choice ? And what about the 1876 Centenial Win ? What perfered calibre for that one ?

Is there one of thoes rifles that smokeless should be avoided at all cost ?

If I go single shot, it WILL be BP,,,and most likely BP in the 1876 if I go that route. We dont have extreme ranges here for competition,,so this would basically be a 'white tail-bear huntin' ' rifle.

Im all erratic with my thoughts here, but you guys are a wealth of knowledge.

In my flinters, I was always .62 or larger,,,so a big thumper aint so bad,,,im used to that.

Thanks

Marshal Deadwood

[rickk]

my 45-70 is a Marlin 1895SS. Heavy Smokeless or BP ... both are fine.

Seems like you have to figure out what you are going to do with it, then figure out what "grade" of load what you like will take, and see if what looks right meets your need strength-wise.

I don't know where you live, but in New England really long barrels for white-tails are not the way to go... They will get hung up on every tree you walk past, wear your arm out, and the extra 50 yards you might get with it would be a rare shot as the scenery rarely permits more than a 200 yard shot anyway.

[Marshal Deadwood]

Honestly,,right now,, I like the 1876 Cent.....the .45-60 might be good. Could one work up a smokeless load as well as the BP load and it not be too hard on the rifle with the smiokless ? Is the '76 toggle link ?
Some have said in my 1873Win wiht toggle link to never shoot standard loads out of it,,,its .45LC,,,,

Is that true that the toggle link in .45LC '73Win is too weak to shoot standard factory .45LC's ?

Im working on narrowing it all down. At my ranges here in teh forest of Southwest Virginia,,my .45LC '73Win is all the gun I really need,,,,IF,,i cuold shoot standard veloc. ammo out of it without damaging the rifle

No long shots to be had here really,,,

Marshal Deadwood

[Tensleep]

Marshal I don't know it all by a long shot  BUT........

I have shot factory ammo in both my 66 and a 73 that owned for a while.
It was mostly at cowboy matches and ranges of 75-100 yards.
Never saw a problem with either rifle.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

With all due respect, a muzzle loader that throws a .62 round ball is not that much of a thumper. How much does the ball weigh? Recoil is directly related to the weight of the projectile, not its diameter. Also, a muzzle loader devlops less pressure than a cartridge gun, because the bullet is crimped in place, and because a round ball does not present as much friction as it runs down the barrel as a cylindrical bullet does. A 45 cal bullet that weighs 400-500-525 grains, now that's a thumper.

You can run any SAMMI spec standard 45 Colt ammo through your 1873 safely. If you find it on the shelf in a gun store, if it is made by a major ammo maker, and as long as it is not Plus P, it will be fine.

Yes the 1876 is a toggle link rifle. It is simply the 1873 on steroids. Yes toggle link rifles are not as strong as some of the later designs. A toggle link never locks up in the conventional sense of a modern rifle. There are no heavy locking lugs sliding into recesses in the frame to keep the bolt closed. A toggle link rifle simply depends on the links to be extended straight when the bolt is in battery. Once the links begin to fold a tiny bit, the bolt is completely unlocked and all that is holding it in place is your hand on the lever. But more importantly, even when the links are lined up and the bolt is at battery, enough battering by heavy recoil can begin to drive the links back into the sockets they rotate in. This can affect headspace. In truth, most modern toggle link rifle don't really lock up with the links seated in the sockets at all, there is usually a tiny bit of clearance. In that case, the only thing keeping the bolt locked is the piins the links rotate on, and excessive battering can begin to bend the pins. Don't get me wrong, for their day, both the 1873 and the 1876 were strong rifles for the ammo they were designed for. But the really strong, powerful rifles of the day were the single shots with massive locking breaches of falling block, or rolling block design.

There were some famous tests run by Winchester in the 19th Century on the 1876 design. They did have to overload it very badly before they got it to fail. But bear in mind those tests were done with Black Powder. The gun would not have held up so well with overloads of Smokeless powder. Both the 1873 and the 1876 are completely safe with conventional SAAMI spec ammo. I would not worry about shooting conventional factory spec 45 Colt through a modern 1873. But do not put Plus P ammo, or any of the stuff you find in the 'Ruger Only' section of a loading manual in one. In contrast, the 1873's successor, the Model 1892, is so strong that they are even chambered for 454 Casul ammo. The 1892 relies on two solid locking lugs sliding into grooves in the frame and the bolt for it's strength. They are as strong as a small bank vault.

*****

If you want to shoot Black Powder in a big rifle cartrdge, consider the 45-70 cartridge before all others. Shooting BP in large rifle cartridges requires a fair amount of experimentation to get it right. More has been written about shooting Black Powder in the 45-70 than any other cartridge. There is simply more knowledge to draw from so you don't have to invent the wheel all over again. Components are much more easily available in 45-70 from a variety of manufacturers than any of the other large rifle cartridges, and cheaper than some of the other large rifle cartridges. Much, much cheaper than some of the other cartridges.

The 1876 Winchester is not available in 45-70. Never was, never will be. The action is too short to accomodate the cartridge. The cartridges the 1876 chambers are shorter and squatter than the 45-70 so they can be fed through the mechanism.

Sorry, but if you want to shoot 45-70 with Black Powder, and want to draw on the experince of hundreds of competition BPCR shooters, that lets the 1876 out of the race. If you really want a lever gun in 45-70, both the Winchester 1886, and the Marlin 1895 are chambered for it. But stop and think. Do you really need a repeater to be banging away with that much power? And burning up all that powder?

I have a Pedersoli Sharps chambered for 45-70. Some day I might like to have an 1886 too. Frankly, I can't understand all the hoopla over the new 1876s. I think it's just because they are new and everybody wants to have one. I have no interest in one. I would much rather have an 1886. They are lighter and stronger than the 1876. Stylistically, I think they are handsomer too. And the action is long enough for the 45-70 cartridge. Designed by John M Browning as an improvement over the 1876. Then he scaled down the 1886 and came up with the 1892.

Just This Cowboy's Humble Opinion.

[Marshal Deadwood]

Driftwood,,,,I was only considering the '85 in the cart that was listed for it, I understand that it doesnt come in a 45/70.

I thinnk the 45-70 would be the best hi wall round. The sharps is my lasts chocie,,it comming between the '85 and the '76.....different rounds I know,,,,but both have some appeal to me.

Marshal Deadwood

[Grapeshot]

I am thinking about a big game,,longer range rifle than my 1873Win.

I will prob shoot BP,,but if one wanted a rifle to possible 'switch' between BP and smokeless....what would be your recommendations,,,,1885 Hi Wall/What calibre would be best ?

1876 Centinenal in what calibre ?  I have the .45-60 Chapparel version.  I like it with the 405 grain Hollow Based Bullet and a 40 grain charge of 777 (by Volume).  A 60 grain volumetric charge with that same 405 grain bullet has a stiff recoil.

13 grains of Unique is a mild charge, and fairly accurate.
Sharpes in what calibre ?

Iv thought about 45-70 in the Sharpes and Hi Wall,,,does taht sound like a good choice ? And what about the 1876 Centenial Win ? What perfered calibre for that one ?

Is there one of thoes rifles that smokeless should be avoided at all cost ?

If I go single shot, it WILL be BP,,,and most likely BP in the 1876 if I go that route. We dont have extreme ranges here for competition,,so this would basically be a 'white tail-bear huntin' ' rifle.

Im all erratic with my thoughts here, but you guys are a wealth of knowledge.

In my flinters, I was always .62 or larger,,,so a big thumper aint so bad,,,im used to that.

Thanks

Marshal Deadwood

[Dick Dastardly]

You could do worse than consider a Remington Rolling Block replica.  Or, you could get lucky and find a buildable action like I did and spend almost twice as much havin' a custom long range rifle made.  Set aside $500 for some sights.  This game gets real interesting when you start heavin' chunks of lead a thousand yards.

Also, get a good and I mean GOOD spotting scope and find a pard that can see.  He's at least half the team.

If yer goin' to stay under 300 yards, get a 38-55.  If yer goin' to play with the long gongs, get at least a 45-70 and a good single rifle with a good Soule sight set.

This ain't like Cowboy Action.  It's more like missile launchin'.  I'm thinkn' my mid-range trajectory is near 60 feet above my line of sight when I'm shootn' the 1000 yard stuff.  Wind plays with ya.  In good order, you will learn a whole new vocabulary.

DD-DLoS