New to cas need some mentoring

[Dieseldr99]

Hi all
I Will try to keep this short. I am a shooter and a reloader as well as a hunter. I am very familiar with firearms.
I have always had a single action revolver and q levergun around. I have no clue
About cas. I recently purchases a matched pair of ruger Bisley blackhawk 5.5 stainless steel 45 colt 45 acp convertables.
Simpy because I wanted them. I have a 6.5 ss nm blackhawk .357 and single six convertible.
Then it hit me I need a levergun to match these revolvers so I start digging I find a lot of cas events
Near me. Now I want in man the cash it takes to start this.

I said keep it short... the bisleys I am waiting on will they work in cas?
I am ambidextrous so I want a double strong side rig. I have a sxs 20 gauge to get by
For a bit. As for the rifle do I go cheap and get the rossi puma in 45 colt
Or throw Down for 1973 codimatic in 45 colt? I got some fun money to play with
It was earmarked elsewhere now I have the cowboy bug.
Any advise is appreciated.
Thanks
Justin

[Major 2]

Yep ...your bit  

The Rugers will for SASS * and I think the BH's  have adj. sights right ?.... That puts you in Modern class

If it were me. spend the extra on the 73 up front ...The Puma would work... but you will want the 73 later, as so many use them
and it's the Choice of the fastest.... us half-fast too    (IMHO buy once get what you want so you don't have to buy twice)
Course there is the argument you can't have enough gun's   

The 20 Gauge is fine....quite a few used 20's.... reactionary targets , knock downs etc. respond to 12's readily , but 20's will work.

* Ruger's Bisley is not an approved revolver for NCOWS however ( Vaquero's are,  just not the Bisley Griped model)

[Stu Kettle]

The Rugers will for SASS * and I think the BH's  have adj. sights right ?.... That puts you in Modern class

SASS no longer has a "Modern class" - adjustable sights are allowed for any of the age-based categories and for B-Western

[Advertising]

[August]

Correct, no more "Modern" class.  So, anything goes as far as sights are concerned -- at least with smokeless powder.

I would strongly recommend against the Codymatic in .45 LC.  Not because Cody makes a bad rifle, but because you'll very soon gravitate to another caliber if you stay with CAS.  Guns in .45 LC are very difficult to sell as people who've been in the sport any length of time want guns in WCF calibers or .38 special.  Wait on the Cody until you've shot CAS for a few years (!).

The most difficult part of SASS is understanding the rules, particularly at they pertain to "safety."  For some reason I've never understood, SASS has some gun handling rules that are very different from other shooting sports.  You can get in a lot of trouble at a match if you handle a gun in the way the NRA and your Dad taught you to.  So, read the rules before going to a match and find someone at the match that can shadow you through your first session.  Don't be proud on this point as there are some very cranky fellers in SASS who love to be self-rightous about the rules.

[Major 2]

Ah...(modern class) it was in ...  when I was.

I never was interested it or shot the class ...

[Stu Kettle]

Correct, no more "Modern" class.  So, anything goes as far as sights are concerned -- at least with smokeless powder.

I would strongly recommend against the Codymatic in .45 LC.  Not because Cody makes a bad rifle, but because you'll very soon gravitate to another caliber if you stay with CAS.  Guns in .45 LC are very difficult to sell as people who've been in the sport any length of time want guns in WCF calibers or .38 special.  Wait on the Cody until you've shot CAS for a few years (!).

The most difficult part of SASS is understanding the rules, particularly at they pertain to "safety."  For some reason I've never understood, SASS has some gun handling rules that are very different from other shooting sports.  You can get in a lot of trouble at a match if you handle a gun in the way the NRA and your Dad taught you to.  So, read the rules before going to a match and find someone at the match that can shadow you through your first session.  Don't be proud on this point as there are some very cranky fellers in SASS who love to be self-rightous about the rules.

Believe it or not, the .45 Colt is still very popular among SASS members, & I've never experienced anything "Strange" about the safety rules.  If you have an interest in SASS, I'd suggest talking to people who enjoy it, rather than those who don't.

[Modoc]

Dieseldr99

Where are you at Pard?  If you are in Northern California, I am more than willing to do some on site mentoring.  The Rossi/Puma is not a bad rifle and if you want to hunt with it, it can run upper end loads MUCH safer than a '73.  I shot with one in 44 mag for years and just finally graduated up to a '73 myself.

Either is a good option, but I might lean toward the EMF/Rossi/Puma myself and use the balance of for ammo.  Then decide if I want a '73 later and in what caliber. 

Right now, the best thing to do is get out to a match and see what is going on.  Ask questions like here and other shooters will probably be eager to show off and extol the virtues of THEIR selection.  Again, don't be afraid to step forward and ask.

[Dieseldr99]

Thanks for the reply's everyone. Modoc I am in Tulsa Oklahoma. As for the calibers l can see the 38 special becuase of cheaper components. As for the .44-40 and others like it are going to be more time consuming to reload and not any cheaper than the 45 colt. I guess I bought the wrong revolvers but they will have to do for now. My brother lives up in Missouri and has a 73 that Cody slicked up and he is in love with it. But he also is in the hunt for a 66 in .44-40 so point taken. I guess I should go visit and test drive the 73. As for the puma I think there is one in .454 casull wich would take any game around here. Thanks for the help it still got a lot to figure out.
Dieseldr99

[Modoc]

Dieseldr99

I am not sure that the 454 is legal at SASS I need to go back to my Rule book.  I beleive that 45 Colt is the largest caliber useable.  Some local matches may let you use it if you are loading 45 Colt cases, but this becomes a hassel if you start traveling around and the Larger matches will probably not let you use the 454.

  I went 38/357 from the 44 mag more for logistics.  My wife shoots with me and our son is looking at getting started soon, so for us it is easier to just load and carry one set of ammo instead of 2 or more non-interchangeable cartridges.  Plus Before Child, we were just shy of 10,000 rounds a year.  I am still loading separate loads for rifle and pistol, but that is because one of the rifles is a real finiky cuss and only likes 357 cases with a 158 or 180 grain boolit.

Your pistols are NOT the wrong caliber.  YOU like them and they will do you very well.  A search on here for "Cowboy Special" using the quotes will turn up a wealth of info for lighter loads and a Cowboy version of the venerable 45 Auto Rim.  Personally, I think that you are off to a great start and are entering into a fun sport with a lot of great people.

Welcome to the club.  The Gun Buyers Anonymous meeting  is in the Saloon every day upon log-in


As for Hunting, You can find factory 45 Colt ammo that will do the job just as well as the 454 without the extra price.  Just keep it separated from the Cowyboy Ammo.  It is not fun buying steel that you broke (Been There, Done That).

[Dieseldr99]

Modoc
I was reading sass rules on the web, it looks like my Bisley blackhawk revolvers do put me in b western. And it states leverguns from 1880 or later so it looks like the 73 will have to wait for me to get new revolvers or convert these to fixed sights. So I am leaning to the Rossi 92 in 45 colt. I am gonna shoot the coachgun till I get me and 1897. I am amazed how this bug bit me last week I was totolly gearing up for modern 3 gun comps. I own a lot of those type weapons. But now I am dreaming of 73's. It seems that there are at least 2 matches a month not far from me. . I think I will order a 1000 starline 45 colt brass it will be mid April on he delivery. Then order me some Missouri bullets. Mean time I will pickup 200 win cases at my local supplier. Get started loading and probably order the puma in 45 colt, if I got the 454 I would use 45 at matches but you are right I probably would not fly and 45 colt will do.
Thanks for the help
Dieseldr99

[Driftwood Johnson]

FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, STEP AWAY FROM THE CHECKBOOK!

Howdy

Please, get to a couple of matches before you spend any more money. The rules can be difficult to understand when read dry. They make a lot more sense in context.

A couple of years ago the categories underwent some major revisions, and I still don't completely understand them, but your Bisley Blackhawks do not limit you to the B Western category. You can use pistols with adjustable sights in any age based category, such as Wrangler, Forty-Niner, Senior, Silver Senior, and Elder Statesmen. The idea behind B Western is flashy clothes, as often seen in B Western movies, drop style or Buscadero holsters, and rifles made in 1880 or later. That means no 1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester, or Winchester 1873. Most of the time in the B Western movies, the most common rifle seen was a Winchester Model 1892, so that what was what the originators of the category originally intended. The recent appearance of replicas of the 1883 Colt/Burgess rifle has somewhat muddied this.

You might want to hold off on ordering a bazillion 45 Colt cases too.

These days, the go to caliber is 38 Special. Not just for cost, but because with lightly loaded 38s recoil is greatly reduced, so fast repeat shots are easier. It may not be very historically accurate, but that is the direction most of the competition has gone. I wish I had a dollar for every CAS shooter who just had to have a 45, but later jumped on the bandwagon of trying to get the 45 Colt to recoil like a lightly loaded 38. The grand old 45 does not perform very well like that. There is also a brisk trade in cowboys dumping their 45 Colts for 38s.

Whether or not you want to shoot heavy loads, at least try a bunch of guns before you sign the check. If you show up at a match, and show a reasonable amount of interest, shooters will lining up to allow you to try their guns.

Regarding 44-40, dunno where you heard it is more time consuming to load than 45 Colt. Yes, 44-40 can be a little bit fussy to load, fussier than the 45 Colt, but it does not take a whole lot more time to load. Where 44-40 really shines is as a rifle round used for Black Powder. Because of the slightly thinner brass at the neck, 44-40 expands better to seal the chamber than a 45 Colt does at relatively low pressure, keeping all the fouling in the barrel where it belongs.

[Camille Eonich]

What Driftwood said.  He's usually dead on when it comes to guns and SASS.


I'll only add this before you even think again about buying a '92 talk to as many people as you can who have actually owned one.  They are very finicky guns even when slicked up by the best.  There's also more of them out there that DO give people problems than that don't.


I had to have a '92 when I first started shooting.  I sent it to the '92 man for full race job, sent it back 3 times.  I never completed a single match with it.  I was shooting .45s at the time so I bought a '73 in .45 and sent it to Cody to get slicked up.  Sweeeeeeet!  I shot it for a long time even after I switched to .38s for my pistols.  The only reasons that I ever bought another '73 was because 1) I wanted a deluxe and 2) so that I wouldn't have to load .45s any more.  That was when we still just had one 650 and the change over from loading .45s to .38s was a bit of a pain.  Very shortly after I got my .38 rifle I won another Dillon.   

[Stu Kettle]

I was reading sass rules on the web, it looks like my Bisley blackhawk revolvers do put me in b western. And it states leverguns from 1880 or later so it looks like the 73 will have to wait for me to get new revolvers or convert these to fixed sights. So I am leaning to the Rossi 92 in 45 colt.

If you WANT to shoot B Western you will also have to dress the part.  As soon as you said you were leaning toward a '92 I knew you would be getting some advice from Camille - she hates them, and had a bad experience with one.  I had a bad experience with a Marlin once, but I don't  go around telling everyone that they don't want one of those pieces of crap.  Maybe they do.  I've been shooting a Rossi '92 for years & have never had any trouble with it, & wouldn't trade it for a '73.  A lot of my friends carry a '73, & most of them also carry screwdrivers & spare parts.

The best advice so far has come from Driftwood Johnson: "Please, get to a couple of matches before you spend any more money."  Take the guns you have & plenty of ammo, & someone, probably several someones, will offer you their rifle to try.  You will also find that there are several mindsets about what is the best caliber, & why, so if you like .45s go ahead and shoot .45s.  Personally, I like .44s 

[Camille Eonich]

  As soon as you said you were leaning toward a '92 I knew you would be getting some advice from Camille - she hates them, and had a bad experience with one.  I had a bad experience with a Marlin once, but I don't  go around telling everyone that they don't want one of those pieces of crap. 

My '92 alone was not the determining factor of my opinion on '92s.  I have seen numerous people starting CAS buy '92s because they are the least expensive rifle that you buy to shoot in this sport.  I have watched the frustration on those people's faces match after match as their rifles fail in the in the middle of stages.  I've seen one extremely good shooter that used a '92 for years and rarely had problems with it.  China Camp won EoT years ago shooting a '92 which was my argument when everyone started telling me how bad they were when I was looking at them.


Go to any state championship tell me how many people that finish in the top 100 are shooting '92s.  Go to EoT and tell me how many people in the top 200 are shooting '92s.  If you see any it will amaze me and there is a reason for that.


I have had at least 3 people, after shooting for a while and seeing others shoot '92s, thank me for telling them about my experience and my opinions on '92s.  I know that people here get tired of reading my OPINION on '92s, well you don't have to just skip over it.  I think twice before I even post in these threads anymore because it seems that people take my OPINION on these rifles personally and because of those three people that have thanked me I continue to post anyway.


If you have a '92 and you don't have problems with it I'm very happy for you.  They can be great little guns it's just my OPINION that they aren't well suited for competition.  I'm very sorry that some of you don't like my opinion but on this issue I will continue to give it.  Please don't take it personal because there is nothing personal about it.

[Dieseldr99]

Driftwood, Camille, Stu
I appreciate the comments and the opinions, I like this board it already feels like family.
I ended up getting a good deal on a 92 so I am gonna give it a shot. I know I will end up with a 73. I have 2 sons who love shooting the 92 will not go to waste. I am gonna shoot my old sxs till I decide I have to have a pump if I never decide I have to have a pump I will get a sxs in 12 gauge. I have a local leather shop and saddlery that quoted me 250 on a double strong side rig with 45 loops lined I don't know how good their holsters are but they have a top knotch rep in leather goods. I am open to opinions on this it is mock bros saddlery in sand springs Oklahoma.
Thanks all
Dieseldr99

[Driftwood Johnson]

Camille

I had no idea you felt that way about 92's. Give me a shout next time you are in this neck of the woods and I will let you shoot this little honey. It was made in 1919 and it is a pleasure to shoot. Probably not as fast as a '73, but fast ain't everything. Definitely nicer than anything made by Puma or Rossi.

[Camille Eonich]

Driftwood that is one sweet looking rifle.  I definitely think that the originals have a lot on the clones and I also think that things are a bit better if the caliber the gun is chambered for isn't a straight wall cartridge.  The originals were designed for bottle necks.  The '92 that I had was one of the slickest cowboy rifles that I have ever handled.  It was light and shouldered well and I loved the way it looked.  I really wanted to like the rifle.


Diesel I hope that you get tons of enjoyment out of your new rifle.  You'll probably have to play around a bit with the OAL and be picky about it once you find one the gun likes.  Use a taper crimp on those .45s rather than a factory crimp to help keep the edges of the case from catching when it chambers.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Yup, Camille, I own two original Winchester 92s, both are chambered for 44-40. In fact, all my CAS rifles are chambered for 44-40, except for Mrs Johnson's little Marlin, which is a 357Mag/38Sp.

One slight correction though. Most reloading die sets for revolver cartridges like 45 Colt and 38 Special come with a seating/crimp die that puts a roll crimp on the case, not a taper crimp. Taper crimps are for cartridges like 45 ACP that headspace on the case mouth. A taper crimp leaves a tiny bit of the case mouth exposed so the round can headspace on the square shoulder of the chamber. A roll crimp rolls over nicely into the crimp groove of a lead bullet. Revolver ammo is usually rimmed and the rounds headspace on the rim. No need to leave any of the case exposed, so it is rolled over into the crimp groove, mechanically locking the bullet in place. In my experience, a properly formed roll crimp is a bit more friendly for reliable feeding in a rifle.

[Camille Eonich]

When I was having so many problems with my Rossi, Steve Young advised me to try the taper crimp on the .45s in an attempt to get it to feed better.  I never did try it though by that time I was sick of it and put it in the safe.

[Trailrider]

I'll float my stick with Driftwood!  Although I haven't tried it, there should be no reason you can't shoot .45 Long Colt ammo in a .454 Casull-chambered '92 (Rossi, Puma, etc). The main difference between the cartridges is case length, bullet weight, pressure and wall thickness of the case.  The head and rim dimensions are very similar, probably varying from ammo manufacturer-to-manufacturer, more than anything else.

It is true that the '92 action is somewhat finicky about the overall length of the round that it will feed well, but I've got both .44 Magnum and .44-40 Rossi's, and the only problem I ever had feeding was with a previous .44 Magnum that wouldn't reliably feed .44 Specials (which I don't shoot anymore, anyway).  My current .44 Magnum Rossi was worked on by a local 'smith, and feeds .44 Specials just fine...if I wanted to use them.

So far as the .45 LC round is concerned, I recommend bullets no lighter than 230 grains, but many folks do use 200gr, and sometimes lighter. But the lighter bullets are also shorter and don't provide as much resistance to movement for light smokeless powder loadings.  If you are using smokeless powder in the .45 LC, you need to be aware that loads should be kept a bit above the minimum recommended and DEFINITELY USE A FIRM ROLL CRIMP OF THE CASE MOUTH INTO A CRIMP GROVE OF THE BULLET!  Also, be sure to use an expander plug that is .002-.003 SMALLER than the bullet diameter to insure a good interference fit between the case neck and the bullet.

Definitely attend some matches and try out differnt guns before making purchases.

Welcome to the campfire!