Black Powder for the Uberti top-breaks

[Short Knife Johnson]

Howdy all.

Had the big idea today to run some Goex laden .44 WCF's through my Uberti Schofield for the first time.  The load shoots really not bad, and seems very accurate in my original '73.  Problem is, my Schofield was pretty bunged up after only 5 rounds.  I just got done pretty much stripping the gun and cleaning the mess.  I'll leave reassembly for tommorrow.

Is there any tips to share on keeping the Schofields and Russians ticking with BP loads?  Gun modifications, loading tricks, et al.  I also have a Russian I would like to feed the odd treat of Holy Black.

[Pettifogger]

Not really.  When Uberti redesigned the Schofield and Russian for modern production they left out the gas ring that helped shield the base pin from BP fouling.  Guess they figured most people would be shooting smokeless powder through them.  (Not a bad assumption, actually.)  No cheap way to fix the problem.  A soft bullet with a huge lube groove and lots of BP lube helps a little, but the modern Schofields just don't run well with BP.

[Qball]

Hmm...... what's the fun of owning a Schofield if one can't shoot blackpowder in it 

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[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

Hmm...... what's the fun of owning a Schofield if one can't shoot blackpowder in it 

Style points.   

SQQ

[Qball]

Style points.   

SQQ

Any one shooting blackpowder got style points 

at least in my book

[Flint]

It's not just the Uberti (or other) Italian repro top breaks.  I have an original (had two, but sold one) S&W Russian, 2nd Model (the other was a New Model 3, but chambered in Russian).  Neither is happy shooting black powder, even with their longer gas ring.

I think the tighter fitting, and the smaller rachet circle exaggerate the fouling problem, and very likely were involved in the US Army dropping the Schofield revolver, beyond the ammo problem.

They are still fun to shoot (the repros with smokeless), as the size and shape are distinctive and add a different color to a CAS shoot full of Colt clones and Rugers.  They are a more intimidating gun than a Colt due to their size, seems like a lot more revolver than the caliber would require, kind of like chambering a Model 29 in 38 special.....

[Drydock]

Yeah, the Army cataloged several field complaints/memos about Schofields gumming up with fouling with just a few rounds.  Both Frankford and contract ammo were not known for the highest grade powder either, making things even worse.  The Colt was a lot more tolerant of fouling.  Large factor in the retention decision.  The Schofield was ahead of its time.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Yeah, the top breaks are definitely more complicated. 

New information to me about the gas ring that keeps fouling out of the base pin.  Maybe there's a way to install an O-ring or something.  Duplex loading?  Perhaps I'll have to sttle loading smokeless and just imagine the plumes of smoke.   

Flint is right though.  Their very presence is what attracted me to them in the first place.  They do stand out on the firing line.

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

I've read on the SASS forum that some folks have had success controlling fouling with with black powder substitutes in top breaks.  Not being a black powder ground shooter I've not paid much attention.  I'll be using mine for mounted shooting and will report back on how that goes.   

SQQ

[Montana Slim]

As far as the capabilities of the original Smith #3.....I have one (44 Russian), and can pound-out 60 rounds in short order to demonstrate it's capability to handle BP fouling.

Regards,
Slim

[Flint]

Perhaps part of the success shooting black powder today is the Big Lube and similar bullets available, reloaders are using much more lube and even grease cookies to keep the fouling softer.  These heavily lubed cartridges were not available or issued back in the day.  I don't know what lube the early cartridges used, but the lube grooves of the early bullets don't look much bigger than modern bullets made foe smokeless.  Going back even further, I don't think the paper cartridges for cap & ball contained any lube at all, or not much, if any, so they must have fouled quickly as well.

For the ordinary, non-military gun owner a century and more ago, they didn't fire enough rounds in an incident to foul a gun to a stop, normally.  If just target shooting, they were probably content to clean the revolver often enough, and if confronted by a snake or other beast, or hunting, probably only fired a few shots at most.

Other than the lack of similar buildup of fouling, the subs don't seem to be any slipperier in their fouling than real black powder, I found 777 or Ascorbic Acid powders to be pretty sticky too, not like smokeless.

[Short Knife Johnson]

As far as the capabilities of the original Smith #3.....I have one (44 Russian), and can pound-out 60 rounds in short order to demonstrate it's capability to handle BP fouling.

Regards,
Slim

You should send me that pistol then for an extended period of test firing to make sure you're not having us on. 

Originally, bullet lube contained sperm whale oil which is no longer available.  Maybe that made a difference.  I don't see more lube as the solution.  If there was a way to retrofit some sort of gas seal, and keep the base pin lubed with T/C Bore butter.
BTW, the old combustable paper cartridges carried lube on the bullet, and cap and ball pistols were loaded with a dollop of lube over top of the ball.  But I have heard of lube being sandwiched between the ball and powder with the use of an over-powder wad.

[kcub]

Some have said Custer might well have won Little Bighorn had the troops the faster reloading Schofields instead of Colts, fouling notwithstanding.

It seems like someone would come up with a black powder substitute that isn't nasty.

[Regret Chancy]

I had a post about short stroke kits for my Uberti Henry that coformed to my Schofields and Henry being recommended to go to black powdre and aligning with the NCOWS crowd. At some point a gunsmith was recommended to me that was having success correcting this problem in the top breaks and Remmy replicas. I personally have not been able to have the work done but these guys seemed happy with his fix. Hope it helps.
                                                              Regret Chancy

[Pitspitr]

It really comes down the the indiviual gun. I had one that you could shoot a whole 1 day match without it fouling out. The one I have now when it was new you couldn't get 1 cylendar full through it without it fouling out.

[Slowhand Bob]

I started out with a load that some recommended on the WIRE some years back for making smoke with Uberti Schofield clones, before S&W came out with their own clone.  It was recommended on the WIRE to use a lite load of the old Clean Shot sub in 45Colt brass and top it off with enough caulking foam to be level with the case mouth.  I think  a 200gr bullet was also recommended (no lube of any kind necessary).  These loads worked great in my two Schofields and shooting six stages without any cleanup was a breeze.  Later I converted to the AJ Cowboy 45Special brass and a 165gr rnfp bullet and no fillers for a load that still works great without as much trouble loading on my progressive.

Thinking that I knew the secret I purchased a short barl Uberti Schofield in 44-40 and tried the same techniques but this time it doesnt work at all.  I would now say it seems to be based on each individual gun as to whether they can handle the subs or not.  Try a lite load of the  So my math goes, if it doesnt make smoke I do not need it but I did want to go to short barls so one plus one equals, sell the 44-40 and use the money to fund having my pair of 45s shortened since they have proven true.       

[Regret Chancy]

Hey Bob,
   It is all good with the big smoke 45's but there are always some in every crowd that have tohave a gripe about something. When its not the bullet its the load andif its not either of those its the gun, when all else fails its the stage or the RO or the match director. Some people aint happy unless they can find something or someone to blame for their brain farts or idiocy and lack of success. I have never won any matches,dont have any collection of buckles, the only trophies I have were won for me by my gamecocks, but I love this sport and figger their is always going to be those whiners and excuse makers around so I just grin and bear it. I live it because I love it , and love living it.
                                                                                       Regret Chancy

[Short Knife Johnson]

I just finally picked up a copy of Mikey V's "Shooting Sixguns of the Old West."  I think maybe to try pulling the cylinder and cleaning the base pin when necessary.  Apparently, all you need to do is remove the rearmost screw, then the latch lifts away and then you can remove the cylinder for a quick cleaning and lubrication of the base pin.  Was unaware of that.... 

[kcub]

I just finally picked up a copy of Mikey V's "Shooting Sixguns of the Old West."  I think maybe to try pulling the cylinder and cleaning the base pin when necessary.  Apparently, all you need to do is remove the rearmost screw, then the latch lifts away and then you can remove the cylinder for a quick cleaning and lubrication of the base pin.  Was unaware of that.... 

The Russians and Beretta Laramies are even easier.  They have a knurled screw on the topstrap for removing the cylinder with just your hands, no tools.  So it must have been considered in the package of No. 3's improvements.

[Short Knife Johnson]

So that what that screw is for.  Also good to know.