Petroleum Products and Black Powder

[cpt dan blodgett]

By wt
2 parts Bees Wax
1 Part Mutton Tallow
1/8 part canola oil
No paraffin at this time.  Actually have some that I could add if I run into problems.

Got some 1/8 hard felt from durofelt and used a 7/16 harbor freight punch to make a bunch of wads that I soaked in the melted lube.  A little felt makes a lot of wads at about 50 per linear inch.  They seem to work ok behind a bear creek moly coated bullet out of both my vaqueros (original and new)7.5 inchers and my rossi 92 and a 45 colt classic carbine both with 20 inch barrels.  got no hard fouling with about 23 grains FFg scheutzen a Dr Pepper case wad, the lube wad or lube cookie approx 3/16 thick and another dp case wad and the 200 grain bullet
I also hand lubed some billy bullets 245 grain molys that have about a 1/8 semi circular lube groove.  Those shot ok also without fouling

Have not really started shooting C&B for CAS yet.  Need to work up some BP shotgun loads and really get cylinder loading down so I can do it quickly and correctly so as not to piss off the people in the posse for taking so much time loading I do not do my part with other posse duties.  I have put treso nips on my two 58 remmies one circa 1992 and the second purchased a year or so ago both from Cabela's.  I have toyed with the idea of just putting some of the lube in a shoe polish tin and sorta smearing it on top of the balls with a period correct putty knife or other similar implement.  Not sure which would work better the homemade wonder wads or just the plain lube on top of the bullet.



I know, generally speaking BP and Moly dont mix, but I have about 5K moly bullets so I thought I would try them.  I have also tested desparado bullets from my rossi with BP, they work ok there.  I have some of their 45/70 bullets that work ok from a 26 inch barreled rolling block, but get hard fouling close to the end of the barrel with my 32 inch barreled sharps.

They shoot ok from either gun with smokeless.  Have since ordered Montana Bullet works Saeco 480 and 500 grainers in .459

I have a lot more testing to do to get a good bp load for each of the 45/70s.  Am too cheap to by the material to do a cerro cast of my chambers.  Think I will use a poor mans method and just find a piece of 45 90 brass.  Get a rough idea of depth based on how much originally sticks out of either rifles chamber, trim close to that working deeper chamber first, trim back in small increments till it fits, then move to the shorter chambered rifle.

[Noz]

What can happen with lubed wads in cartridges.

I started shooting SASS with 41 mags, revolvers and rifle.

When I went to Frontiersman, I started using lubed wads under the 41 bullets in the rifle because there is no 41 bullet that carries enough lube to be shot with black powder.
My accuracy would go to pot after several rounds in each match. Bore would be relatatively clean. An old shooter watched me and then told me to let him shoot the rifle as I stood behind him and watched. The wads were sticking to the base of the bullets and the bullets were doing some really fancy dancing on the way down range.

You could put a paper wad between lubed wad and bullet but it just seemed to be more than I was willing to do.

Gave up and bought a 44-40.

[Mako]

Noz,
Are you sure that wasn't just the wad?  I did the same thing once with some .38 spl loads when I ran out of Snake Bite Grease Wagons.  I put a lubricated wad under a bullet with smokeless lube and you could see the wads zipping down range.  They would often be smoking and spiraling as they went.

Several of the posse noticed and everyone started watching them when I shot.  They were calling them "tracers." It was entertaining, but it didn't noticeably move the impact point.  I had shot some earlier at 50 yrds to make sure my point of aim was the same or close with those lighter bullets.  Perhaps it would cause problems at greater ranges but I didn't see any major problems at 50 yrds.  That's my limited experience, maybe a total of 80 rounds.  We shot the balance with the family at one of our outings.

The next week I used a .44 because I knew the R.O. at that club would probably use it as an excuse to disqualify me.  It seems we set their range on fire once with shotgun debris and he hated BP (told us he did).  It wasn't bad, just a small smoldering fire from a lubricated vegetable wad.  You can imagine the tormenting we did once we realized he objected.  We'd do things like move our names or intentionally sign up on the posse lists he was already on since he was anal and immediately signed on a list when he opened the range on Saturday morning.  We'd do things like add glitter and chalk dust to our shells as well and he'd object.  Then we did the infamous feather loaded shell...which is an entirely different story.

Regards,
Mako

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[Junkman]

Mako,

You're a devil you are! 

[cpt dan blodgett]

Wow Mako, you are making me reach back to organic chemistry fall semester 72 and Spring of 73

Whats next Hemiacetals, which is after all a half acetal - hows that for a 40 year old witticism,
The really scary thing is a kinda understand what you are saying after all these years.

[Noz]

Noz,
Are you sure that wasn't just the wad?  I did the same thing once with some .38 spl loads when I ran out of Snake Bite Grease Wagons.  I put a lubricated wad under a bullet with smokeless lube and you could see the wads zipping down range.  They would often be smoking and spiraling as they went.

Several of the posse noticed and everyone started watching them when I shot.  They were calling them "tracers." It was entertaining, but it didn't noticeably move the impact point.  I had shot some earlier at 50 yrds to make sure my point of aim was the same or close with those lighter bullets.  Perhaps it would cause problems at greater ranges but I didn't see any major problems at 50 yrds.  That's my limited experience, maybe a total of 80 rounds.  We shot the balance with the family at one of our outings.

The next week I used a .44 because I knew the R.O. at that club would probably use it as an excuse to disqualify me.  It seems we set their range on fire once with shotgun debris and he hated BP (told us he did).  It wasn't bad, just a small smoldering fire from a lubricated vegetable wad.  You can imagine the tormenting we did once we realized he objected.  We'd do things like move our names or intentionally sign up on the posse lists he was already on since he was anal and immediately signed on a list when he opened the range on Saturday morning.  We'd do things like add glitter and chalk dust to our shells as well and he'd object.  Then we did the infamous feather loaded shell...which is an entirely different story.

Regards,
Mako

Nope. In my case the bullet was affected byt the wad. You could see thempass by the targets in their crazy dance. I was and am sure enough that I spent the money for a rifle that does not need the wads. Anyone that knows me knows that that kind of exp0ense I don't take lightly.

[Mako]

Nope. In my case the bullet was affected byt the wad. You could see thempass by the targets in their crazy dance. I was and am sure enough that I spent the money for a rifle that does not need the wads. Anyone that knows me knows that that kind of exp0ense I don't take lightly.

Noz,
I'm sure you could make almost anything do a "crazy dance" my friend...

I'm with you o the wads though, I like a good big lube bullet and I like accurate rifles.  Even with our closer SASS range targets we get an occasional 75 yard bonus target and I don't want to miss them.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

By wt
2 parts Bees Wax
1 Part Mutton Tallow
1/8 part canola oil
No paraffin at this time.  Actually have some that I could add if I run into problems.

Got some 1/8 hard felt from durofelt and used a 7/16 harbor freight punch to make a bunch of wads that I soaked in the melted lube.  A little felt makes a lot of wads at about 50 per linear inch.  They seem to work ok behind a bear creek moly coated bullet out of both my vaqueros (original and new)7.5 inchers and my rossi 92 and a 45 colt classic carbine both with 20 inch barrels.  got no hard fouling with about 23 grains FFg scheutzen a Dr Pepper case wad, the lube wad or lube cookie approx 3/16 thick and another dp case wad and the 200 grain bullet
I also hand lubed some billy bullets 245 grain molys that have about a 1/8 semi circular lube groove.  Those shot ok also without fouling

Have not really started shooting C&B for CAS yet.  Need to work up some BP shotgun loads and really get cylinder loading down so I can do it quickly and correctly so as not to piss off the people in the posse for taking so much time loading I do not do my part with other posse duties.  I have put treso nips on my two 58 remmies one circa 1992 and the second purchased a year or so ago both from Cabela's.  I have toyed with the idea of just putting some of the lube in a shoe polish tin and sorta smearing it on top of the balls with a period correct putty knife or other similar implement.  Not sure which would work better the homemade wonder wads or just the plain lube on top of the bullet.



I know, generally speaking BP and Moly dont mix, but I have about 5K moly bullets so I thought I would try them.  I have also tested desparado bullets from my rossi with BP, they work ok there.  I have some of their 45/70 bullets that work ok from a 26 inch barreled rolling block, but get hard fouling close to the end of the barrel with my 32 inch barreled sharps.

They shoot ok from either gun with smokeless.  Have since ordered Montana Bullet works Saeco 480 and 500 grainers in .459

I have a lot more testing to do to get a good bp load for each of the 45/70s.  Am too cheap to by the material to do a cerro cast of my chambers.  Think I will use a poor mans method and just find a piece of 45 90 brass.  Get a rough idea of depth based on how much originally sticks out of either rifles chamber, trim close to that working deeper chamber first, trim back in small increments till it fits, then move to the shorter chambered rifle.

Dan,
I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you, but I still have questions about your lube.  I just think you have too much fat in it to make a lube that would work anywhere except in temperatures in the 70s  and below.  Your ratios give you over 66% fat in your mix and the oil is unsaturated fat (which just means it's liquid at room temperature).


(Note: Dan found where I transposed the tallow and beeswax, look below for the corrected ratios.)
When I made my change to the "Summer" lube I wanted to make sure  kept the amount of Fatty acids high, which you can see is accomplished by using Beeswax.  In your case you have abundant fatty acids, but your lube must be awfully soft with that rapeseed oil mixed in and the high tallow content.

I think you need to boost your wax content if you plan on using it in the summer.

Regards,
Mako

[cpt dan blodgett]

Thanks I can certainly add some paraffin.  Looked up an original post on BPCR, looks like I made the stuff up in early October was probably in the 90s then.  So come about April it will start getting hot in the garage.  I will know about then if it is too soft.  I do have it stored in metal or plastic containers in case it decides to melt.  When I was hand lubing the Billy Bullets the heat from my fingers world soften the lube pretty much.  

Just noticed a what appears to be a transcription error in your analysis I used 2 parts Bees Wax, 1 Part Tallow 1/8 Canola / Rape Seed oil.  The chart shows 2 parts Tallow vs the 1 Part
Ends up being 35.2 % Fat  and 64.8% Wax  putting the mix about half way between traditional and your summer.  The biggest difference being doubling the Beeswax and leaving out the paraffin
At some point I may add some lanolin to the mix, I have some as well as some Jojoba Oil.  You would think living in AZ I could collect the seeds and squeeze my own Jojoba Oil.

Having read some of the sticking wad posts, I may start using a wax paper wad on top of the over lube wad.

Will be after Christmas before I get a chance to hit the range with BP loads again

[Mako]

Dan,
Yep, I flipped them.  I guess you can see why I was scratching my head.  The actual numbers are below.  With your ratios I cheated a bit to make the base number be a "whole" number for the ounces.  The "1 pound" ends up being 15.625 ounces, which is correct for your ratios so the fat percentage is actually 36% and the wax is 64%.

These are the corrected tables.



Even though the "fat" content is between the two formulas I show there is a big difference.  All of my fat is saturated and solid at room temperature. 4% of your mixture is liquid at room temperature so it has to have an effect on the stiffness.  Plus, the beeswax is not as hard as the paraffin.  That is why I kept the paraffin at 40% in both formulas, when you just switch it out for Beeswax it gets too soft.  As I wrote above the Beeswax mixtures which are actually very traditional are actually better over a greater range, but with our summers it is too soft without paraffin.  An alternative might be to increase the Beeswax and decrease the Tallow. 

For your mixture the oil will always make it soft.  For a BPCR load where you never come into contact with the lube once the bullet is in a case it will probably work fine.  But if you look at my original statements about "Summer " lube in reply #31 above, it has to be a lube that will work for cap guns in the summer.

Regards,
Mako

[john boy]

Mako - Gentlemen:  This has been an excellent thread.  Informative - interesting and educational.  Much thanks to all who have contributed.
A Happy and Enjoyable Holiday   

[cpt dan blodgett]

JB between you and Mako, I am getting a much needed and appreciated education on the dark side of things.  Now I need to figure out how to get enough range time to test out the theories.   Seating the bullet out to the proper dimension to touch the lands (your pencil abc techique) Was able to shoot 3 rounds in a 1.5 inch by 1 inch isosceles triangle.  Rounds 1 and 2 forming the base at 100 (sorry to report was using varget).  This by far is the best the rifle has shot to date.  It may never be a sub moa gun, but can shoot well enough for SASS long range.  I plan to do a lot more testing with BP using the charge it takes to get the proper OAL for the 3 bullets I have starting with 0 compression and working up in about .025 increments to .130 compression with FFg Scheutzen.  Will also test some FFFg Schuetzen as well.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Good on ya, Cpt. Dan!  Keep yer powder dry and yer trigger finger well lubed and warm!

[john boy]

Capt Dan, since you are using Schuetzen, here's a heads up based on a compression test of black powder:

the Black Powder Cartridge News -2009 Fall - "Some Black Powder Compression Data" article by Bob Woodfill:
Caliber - 45-70
Lyman 457124
Constant volume of FFg powder used
Compression tested: 0" - 1/8" - 1/4" - 3/8" and 1/2"
Best 3 Shot Groups 100yds ... 5 shot groups were tested also, with the same compression values except for Goex (1/4") and Schuetzen (1/2")
Goex - 0.62" with 1/8" compression
Goex Express - 0.26" with 1/4" compression
Schuetzen - 0.61" with 1/4" compression ... Dan, here's your number!
Swiss - 0.56" with 1/2" compression
KIK - 0.65" with 0" compression

[cpt dan blodgett]

Thanks will try that quarter inch as well

[Mako]

Mako - Gentlemen:  This has been an excellent thread.  Informative - interesting and educational.  Much thanks to all who have contributed.
A Happy and Enjoyable Holiday   

Merry Christmas John Boy...

I noticed I have been separated from the gentlemen...   Actually among those here I am probably one of the few that have documents to the effect I was declared one not once but twice (by congress no less).

I appreciate all that you have done over the years and you've taught me a lot.

Merry Christmas and best regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Captain Dan,
You're very welcome and don't forget the many others on this board who know just as much, but are just too lazy to type it all out...   Seriously there is a wealth of knowledgeable people here.

Merry Christmas and keep us informed of your experiments.

Regards,
Mako