Why are 1887 Shotguns Excluded from Wild Bunch Matches?

[litl rooster]

and the secret to a clean stage.....great video

[Montana Slim]

No practical reason, they just use the '97 because it was the one that used in the movie.  It's a theme thing.   

I haven't seen the movie in years....my VCR had a bad day & never recovered.....but.....I recall most, if not all the shotguns in use were model Winchester model 12...so, should we not be using that model instead.

Dang...now I have a good reason to watch the film, but can't.

Regards,
Slim

[Pancho Peacemaker]

I haven't seen the movie in years....my VCR had a bad day & never recovered.....but.....I recall most, if not all the shotguns in use were model Winchester model 12...so, should we not be using that model instead.

Dang...now I have a good reason to watch the film, but can't.

Regards,
Slim

Slim,

There are '97's and at least one Model 12 used.  I think the '97 gets more fanfare as it was used in the "long walk" sequence at the end of the movie.

Winchester 1897's:



Winchester Model 12:

[Advertising]

[BlaiseNSaddles]

Now open sounds fun.  The luger and the 38 super 1911 are ready to go.

1921 cut off. Yeah!  Time to get the Tommy gun out!

[Texas Lawdog]

If you wanna shoot Tommy Guns, You need to join the Zoot Shooters.

[Johnny Morris]

Howdy Pancho,

I still have my 'money' from that day at Ft. Parker, Walmart cashier looked at me funny when I tried to buy a box of shotgun shells with it.

Ft. Parker is like alot of the clubs around us, they are bending the SASS requirements a little to open the WB match to as many as can play.

Oakwood Outlaws have it at their annual and when there is interest, after a monthly.
Thunder River Renegades are about to have a side match next month.
Tejas Pistoleros permit it as your category at monthly shoots.
Plum Creek allows it as a category at their monthly and annual

I bet there are more here in Texas.

I have shot at all of these clubs and am glad to see the interest.

'Till next time, Johnny

[Camille Eonich]

I haven't seen the movie in years....my VCR had a bad day & never recovered.....but.....I recall most, if not all the shotguns in use were model Winchester model 12...so, should we not be using that model instead.

Dang...now I have a good reason to watch the film, but can't.

Regards,
Slim

Pancho answered that question pretty well for me.   

[Montana Slim]

Yup, I think there are multiple model 12s in sequences shown in most of the film....including the bank heist at the start of the film.....could have been just the one model 97 in various hands in the film's concluding sequences.

pancho, thanks for those pics, much clearer images than I had in my over-used VHS tape.

I guess the point is that SASS doesn't make decisions on equipment for the Wild Bunch match any different than they have for other categories.....nor based on any logical explanation other than it's what they wanted to do that day No other logic can explain? yes/no?

As I see, it's not based entirely on the movie or historical era.

Not trying to bash SASS...just the way I see it....and I'll continue to participate as possible. I'm sure my local clubs will continue with the loosely based rules thay came up with years ago.

Someday I suppose we'll use the 5 stages I wrote that are based on sequences in the film.

Slim

[Camille Eonich]

Montana, if you research the movie you will find that the '97 is the shotgun most associated with the movie as Pancho pointed out in his post.

[Montana Slim]

Montana, if you research the movie you will find that the '97 is the shotgun most associated with the movie as Pancho pointed out in his post.

I'll write a tech report next time I'm able to view the movie in it's entirety :-)
Breakout with number of uses for each model, number of rounds fired, etc. I'm not offended at being wrong 


Slim

[John Smith]

This is an interesting and informative site:
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Wild_Bunch%2C_The

[Camille Eonich]

This is an interesting and informative site:
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Wild_Bunch%2C_The

Excellent. It appears that although there were more model 12s used in the movie, 4 vs 1, they did not appear as frequently as the '97.

[Lumpy Grits]

Howdy Dalion, there is a simular thread on "why only 97" on the SASS wire. I'll copy and paste a couple of key responses since the SASS thread will eventually be deleted. Another thing to remember is SASS has never claimed to be hsitorically accurate, it's a fantasy sport/game. Judge Roy Bean once said;
'Everybody seems to think we’re a period shoot, but we’re not. We’re a fantasy cowboy acting shoot. Judge Roy Bean.'

Here's a couple of key quotes from the thread.
Happy Jack- "As one who was involved in writing the SASS WB Handbook I will answer your question. #1 SASS has always been about early design firearms. The Wild Bunch side match is patterned after the firearms supposedly used by Pike, Tector, Dutch and Lyle in the FINAL scene of the movie. The 1897 shotgun was actually in use by the US military at the time the movie is supposed to depict. All things SASS are fantasy and not a true re-enactment of the period. SASS has always allowed the 1897 SG at their matches . We broadened the 1897 rule to allow the "military style" 1897 in WB matches. One VERY important thing to remember in ALL SASS matches is that the SG is staged open and empty. The rifle is staged HAMMER DOWN on an empty chamber. One reason SASS only allows external hammer firearms is that you can verify that the hammer is down. With an internal hammer SG such as a model 12 you cannot see the hammer and therefore cannot verify that it is down on an empty chamber. In Wild Bunch we have an exception to the normal SASS rules in that the SG may be preloaded at the loading table with the rounds needed for the first (usually only) SG engagement. The SG is then staged with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Without an external hammer you cannot be sure of its condition. Therefore SASS will NEVER approve internal hammer SG, rifles, etc. As a new shooter to SASS, WELCOME and enjoy yourself. I am sure if you want to shoot a WB match someone will loan you a '97 for the match. Be aware though, that they are a bit difficult to keep running smooth. If you have some '97 problems you are not alone"


Evil Roy-"I attended Wild Bunch side matches for years. There were no universal rules. No one could ever tell me until I got there if my 1911, leather, loads, shotgun ar anything else was legal. One of the reasons for the SASS rules is that it gives uniformity to the WB matches. I know that if I buy and practice with what the rules specify I can shoot any match which uses the rules. I also know how to plan a match because I know what firearms, ammo and leather will be used. Try to plan a stage with broomhandle mausers, bolt action 5 shot rifles, semi auto shotguns and who knows what and you will find it very dificult. No ten shot rifle stages, no 20 round pistol stages requiring 3 reloads, and no knockdowns if lighter calibers are used. What is the manual of arms on some of these guns so I will know how to plan a SAFE stage. The only way WB can grow is to have common rules so everyone can buy gear and know they can shoot coast to coast with it. Clubs which allow different gear are actually keeping the sport from growing. Going to allow 38 Super or 9mm? Get ready to to see the fast guys go to the lighter calibers and everyone else bitching about the unfair advantage. Take your 9mm to another big match and you may not be allowed to shoot it.

You should know that SASS is already signing up WB only clubs and having a seperate WB World Championship. Regional and state WB only matches are already approved. You are not helping the WB movement grow by having different gun classes and allowing all kinds of offbeat gear and guns. Your members will be buying and using gear in your match they will not be able to use elsehere. My understanding is that state and above matches by 2011 will have to use the SASS rules.

We all owe Happy Jack a big thank you. He wrote the WB rules with input from SASS, CAS shooters, industry 1911 legends and shooters, leather manufacturers, and many more folks who had input to the finale version. The rules are very well thought out and based on a great deal of information and many years experience from many people. He is now working on an RO manual with input from many people.

WB is intended to be a big bore class with a power factor. This makes knockdown targets a part of a match if desired. This also means you can now start or end a stage with any firearm as the timer will pick up the shots. A few smaller targets may be included which means you need to sight your gun in and learn how to shoot it but it is still a speed sport so larger targets used at most SASS matches can and should be used for most targets.

Wild Bunch matches are huge fun and many of us expect it to grow into a very big sport within SASS. If you have not tried it you should."

At the local level we can continue to be creative with the firearms permited, one club may have a cutoff date of 1913, while another may be 1921. We plan to start having a few WB matches at our local club, we will have three categories, Modern, Traditional and Open. Open is gonna be run whatcha brung, we plan on allowing any pump shotgun, SXS, or lever. Pistols up to 1913, subject approval from the MD and ROs. However at scantioned matches the growing trend is to follow SASS rules, and there appears to be some merlt to that decision. If you plan on shooting one of those matches I'm sure plenty of folks will be more than wiling to loan a 97. Good Luck.

Jefro, Relax-Enjoy

The '87 HAS an external hammer........
ALLOT of the local clubs allow'em.
Cheers,
LG

[Jefro]

The '87 HAS an external hammer........
ALLOT of the local clubs allow'em.
Cheers,
LG

What?? Did you miss reading my last paragraph?? I was just quoting the powers that be, the feller asked a question.  At our local match we have an Open category that allows any SASS shotgun, plus any pump, external hammer or not, and any pistol caliber rifle. Come to the Carolinas and enjoy a great WB match.

The Open category will include;
Any SASS approved main match rifle in pistol caliber.
Any SASS approved main match shotgun.
Open Shotgun:  Any pump shotgun. This is includes the Model 12 or even a Remington 870. Shotguns may be chambered for 20, 16, 12 or 10 gauge shells.  The Winchester 1893 and Marlin 1898 are prohibited. Note, any shotgun not listed is subject to approval by the ROs and MD.

Open Handgun: Any double-action revolver (minimum 6 shot cylinder) or semi automatic pistol, chambered in .30 caliber (7.62 mm) or larger, designed before 1917.   The WB shooter has the option of using two handguns or a single handgun, reloading it as necessary.  Revolvers may be reloaded with single rounds or moon clips.  Revolvers may only be shot using the double action mode.  Magazines may only be inserted at the loading table.  Semi automatic handguns will be carried without magazines at all other times. Note any handgun not listed is subject to approval by the ROs and MD.



Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Lumpy Grits]

YOU are CORRECT!
Did MIS-READ that part.
SORRY,
Cheers,
LG

[The Elderly Kid]

A single model 12 was used in the railroad office robbery at the beginning of the film. That one was carried by Crazy Lee (Bo Hopkins) He tossed it to the gang member named Abe, who fired it out the window, then tossed it back to C.L., who later killed several people with it. Abe was killed running out of the office. In the climactic gun battle Pike (William Holden), Dutch (Ernest Borgnine) and Lyle (Warren Oates) all carry 97s, so there were at least three used in the film. Check IMFDB for an almost obsessively detailed listing of the weapons used in TWB. There are many I never spotted.

[Grizzly Adams]

As I see, it's not based entirely on the movie or historical era.

Bingo!  WB action shooting is NOT about the movie.  The WB side match (A 4 man Team event.)  is based on the closing scenes of the movie.