Joining another group......

[Mulee Pete]

Well I'll just get to the hog killin'.
Joined SASS and became a life member.  Helped the local club get started, built sets, got targets, served as VP.  Got new folks to join up and the club grew.  Too much so.  With so much success, we had to deal with the attitudes and the politics and the petty bs, because even though the new folks "loved" this sport, they just had to change it until it was not the fun club we had at the beginning.

Just check out any issue of the SASS newsletter and you'll find and constent dietribe of cowtowing to every whim instead of drawing a line in the sand and sticking to it.

Yer right!  I just don't like change fer changes sake.  So, if I join up with this group, I a bit concerened with the group letting a good idea get sidetracked by "special interest" groups who "love" this sport.............but just have to change it to fit themselves. 

Not unlike the three branches of government ruining this country.

Can my concerens be addresed and my fears relived?

Hope this don't sound like whining.  Thanks in advance for your help.

MuleePete

[Dr. Bob]

Mulee Pete,

We went through that a couple of years back.  Decided to hold to the founding principles and banned race guns and guns that were not copies of period firearms.  No Ruger Bisley Vaqueros.  No Henry Big Boys.  No shotgun slides.  No short stroke kits, lightning rods, aluminium carriers and such.  Light springs and action jobs are fine.  No buscadero rigs which were a Hollywood invention int the 1920's - 1930's.  DA revolvers are fine as main match guns.  Go to the NCOWS web page   

                       ncows.org

and read the approved and non-approved lists in the Bylaws.  The minimum clothing requirements you are probably already meeting.  On the web site look at the 3 levels articles by Marlan Ingram and see where you fit.  I'll wager a whole nickel that you are above leve I.  [I only bet on sure things! ]  We have lots of members that are members of SASS too and shoot both.  I hope that you like what you see.  We are a friendly group and would like to have you at our fire!!

[Mulee Pete]

Thank You Dr. Bob, I'll give the NCOWS site a look see to get started.

MuleePete

[Advertising]

[Will Ketchum]

Pete, many of us Old Time SASS members have a similar story.  We got into SASS because we liked the Old West and shooting the old guns not just the competition.  We had fun with some of the silly things we did on and off the clock.  Then along came those who always were looking for an edge and a way to win instead of just enjoying the sport for itself. 

I have been a Life member of NCOWS nearly as long a I have a SASS one.  As Dr Bob said awhile back we had a some members who wanted us to be their version of SASS.  The membership voted to stay true to our origins and we lost a couple of our largest posses.  Since then we have had much interest in our group from people who like yourself who have been active in SASS from way back and have become disenchanted with what their posses have become.  NCOWS has room for people at different levels of commitment to authenticity from those who just want do enough to shoot to those who document every part of their outfit.  Several of our posses are moving away from the typical 5,5, 10 and 4 shot stages typical of SASS to shoots like woods walks or must hit targets.  Some have done away with the timer.  There isn't a limit to what a posse can put on if they allow their imaginations go.

I hope you decide to join us because you sound just like the type of person we need as a member.

Will Ketchum

[Cole Bluesteele]

Mulee Pete,

I know how you feel.   SASS professes to be and is now indeed a fantasy game with less and less attachment to the historical aspect of CAS.  I remain very active in SASS,but myself and numerous other like-minded members of my SASS club, simply got our SASS affiliated club set up as a NCOWS posse as well.  Interestingly, we are seeing more new members joining our club because of the NCOWS aspect rather than the SASS.  As SASS becomes more fantasy rather than OLD West, perhaps more of the SASS shooters who enjoy the historical emphasis of CAS will do what we did.  join NCOWS and offer your members a choice.  remember variety is the spice of life!

As for as NCOWS losing sight of its historical emphasis, I do not believe such will be the case.  It is afterall, the very heart and essence of its existence.

Cole Bluesteele   

[Professor Marvel]

Monsieur Ketchum, Dr. Bob -
I too am considering NCOWS.
I have a couple specific questions regarding C&B pistol modification acceptable to NCOWS; if this is not the correct venue, please let me know.
I understand NCOWS *does not* allow birdheads or other similar grip modifications.
Does NCOWS allow shortened barrels on the Rem New Army and Colt 1851 (ie 6" and 5.5" bbls)?
Further, do they allow the incorrect Colt C&B 1851 in  .44?
Do they allow replacing the barlycorn 1851 sight with an 1860 style blade, or perhaps the ubitquitous 1/3 of a dime ?
In Lieu of saddlebags for a civilian pedlar, would a leather shoulder bag or the Cabelas Carpetbag be correct?
yhs
Prof Marvel

[Dr. Bob]

Prof.,

Several of us carry carpet or "Gladstone" bags which are similar, but made of leather.  I call mine a Dr.'s bag, of course!   A shoulder bag of period construction should be A OK too. 

As shortened barrels and non standard sights exist on period revolvers in various collections, they are allowed.  NO Dayglow allowed!    The Bylaws mention "Period modifications."

Original Colt M. 1877 & 1878 revolvers are allowed and have birds head grips.  NO one is producing these currently.  The repros of these model designations are all single action and did not exist in 1899 or earlier.  The small Colt, S & W, Marlin and other revolvers such as the "Bulldog" revolvers imported from England & Belgium are legal too.  I hope that this has not been confusing.  The key here is that the revolver must be an original, or a reproduction of an original model from 1865 - 1899.  It's not the grips per se that are not allowed, but them being on reproduction of guns that were not equipped with them in the 19th Century.  I hope that someone can explain this better that I have.  

The Deputy Marshall shoots a 4" bbl New Mod. 58 with a conversion cylinder some of the time!   Kind of sorry that I traded that one off!

I hope that this helps!

[Bristow Kid]

Prof.  Marvel

From my experience with NCOWS most posses are fairly forgiving to new comers.  If it aint exactly what it should be there will be I am sure someone there that can get you headed in the right direction.  The NCOWS posse I used to shoot with let me wear blue jeans in a none period style for almost the first year.  I was encouraged to get period correct things but never pressured.  I am sure you and anyone that trys NOCWS and is willing to give it an honest go will enjoy it.


Bristow Kid

[Bow View Haymaker]

Original Colt M. 1877 & 1878 revolvers are allowed and have birds head grips.  NO one is producing these currently.  The repros of these model designations are all single action -.........

This is one of the rules I question.  Since there are no reproductions of the DA versions of these available, and since the single actions ones LOOK as close to the originals as a vaquero does to a SAA ,  why ain't they allowed. no competitive edge and I just bet that some early gunsmith had put a birds head on a single action back in the day.  I think the new single action versions would be much safer to shoot that an original DA also.  just my lowly opinion   

[Trap]

  My wife has small hands, she shoots ROMVs. I removed the grips,and introduced the frame to a grinder. Filed, polished, shaped the grips to fit. All those things could have been done in the 19th C. If a group is going to remain true to the 19th C the line has to be drawn. NCOWS has chosen to do that. I know the RV is an anacronism but it was OKed early, And in a BW photo I don't believe most could tell from a colt. I started out with ROMVs, I have moved on to other things, but she likes her guns and will probably always shoot them. Once on the approved list, Always on the approved list! Birds head grips on US made SAAs* were not available to the public in the 19th C. Therefore are not NCOWS legal. Shop altered grips are always a possibility.     jt

  *Ex Merwin & Hulberts (which are NCOWS legal)

[Irish Dave]

Mulee:

You raise a very good -- and important -- question. It's perfectly understandable given the changes that have occurred in other organizations, and could have occurred in ours. And I think all who have responded to you have provided valuable insight.

From my perspective, the best reassurance is that (as has been mentioned) NCOWS has already faced that fork in the road -- and chose to remain true to its founding principles and to the historical aspects of this sport. There was a time when the more modern aspects were creeping into NCOWS -- the arms race, the 20th century modifications and accoutrements etc -- especially with some of the affiliated clubs (posses). IMHO, NCOWS woke up to this encroaching danger and took a clear stand that we could not lose our purpose, our very identity, by allowing these things to contaminate the spirit of our organization.

NCOWS is member-governed and the members -- through their elected Congress -- spoke loudly that they did not want to dilute the organization with these trends toward modernism. It was not painless.  We lost a couple of our largest clubs who chose to break away rather than conform to the Congress' decision. We lost some members. Sadly, a few have remained bitter and angry about the decision. But it was the right thing for the Congress to do in light of saving NCOWS. No life-saving surgery is possible without a little loss of blood.

In the long run, time has proven that NCOWS made the right decision. Though it clearly regrets the loss of some fine clubs and members, that tide has turned. We have since picked up several new posses (Indiana, Kentucky, Alabama, Iowa, Texas etc) and membership is holding it own and growing once again. I believe it is this demonstrated commitment to our principles that is responsible.

NCOWS has never been about raw numbers. We realize that we will never rival the "big brothers" of Old West shooting in membership numbers. That's OK. While we welcome all of like philosophy with open arms, we also know that NCOWS' more historical focus will never appeal to everyone.

I guess the bottom line is this: With the debates, the decisions, the difficulties of taking a firm stand clearly behind us and NCOWS having not only survived but grown stronger as a result, I can't imagine a scenario in which NCOWS would ever slide back into the situation that was responsible for that turmoil in the first place. That battle has been fought -- and won. The price has been paid and time has justified the sacrifices made. We are a stronger, more unified, more cohesive organization that ever before, in my opinion. We are growing again and generating heightened interest in the values and principles of our founders.

No reason to fall backwards now.

[Mulee Pete]

For all who have answered, my thanks.

I never have been bi-partisan.  I do work with others, however, I affilliate myself with like minded people and leave others to do the same.  I would rather be one of the few and have a great time, instead of the many thinking how sweet it was before.....

It appears I may have to be a majorty of one in Southern Utah for now, but Kansas is not that far away.  Neither is Las Vegas come to think of it.  Any NCOWS there?

Thank you again for your considered answers.

MuleePete

[River City John]

Monsieur Ketchum, Dr. Bob -
I too am considering NCOWS.
I have a couple specific questions regarding C&B pistol modification acceptable to NCOWS. . .
Further, do they allow the incorrect Colt C&B 1851 in  .44?
yhs
Prof Marvel

Prof Marvel,
your other questions were covered, so let me address this one overlooked.

The By-Law that covers this states that muzzle loading firearms must be original or authentic reproductions of originals.

The brass-framed Colt '51 in .44 and the brass-framed Remington '58 & '63 are modern creations, and as such would not qualify for NCOWS.

The closest from the era would be the brass-framed Confederate Griswold & Gunnison and the Spiller & Burr, both in .36 cal., and both offered as reproductions.

RCJ

[Will Ketchum]

This is one of the rules I question.  Since there are no reproductions of the DA versions of these available, and since the single actions ones LOOK as close to the originals as a vaquero does to a SAA ,  why ain't they allowed. no competitive edge and I just bet that some early gunsmith had put a birds head on a single action back in the day.  I think the new single action versions would be much safer to shoot that an original DA also.  just my lowly opinion   

Mr. Haymaker, we had members who agreed with you.  In fact one of them helps moderate this forum and edits the magazine.  George went to great extent to convince the congress to approve the Cimarron Lightening.  Heck he convinced me   What he didn't do is convince the majority of the congress.  I had polled my posse members and none of them wanted it approved so I voted against it.  If I remember right it has came up twice for approval and been voted down both time .  This is a prime example how NCOWS works.  If the majority of the members would have wanted it approved it would have been.

As for the Vaqueros, I to started with them and still use them on occasion if for no another reason then I shoot them better than any other revolver I own.  If they would come out today, with what is now available I doubt they would be approved.  I have often wished that Ruger would have came out with the new model, smaller framed Vaquero from the first since it is a much closer copy of the SAA.

As stated before we have never removed a gun from the approved list once it had been voted in.  I hope this answers your question.

Will Ketchum

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy Mulee!
Me and my pard, Innocent Bystander, are down in Las Vegas; PM sent!

[Professor Marvel]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your time and  replies, especially since I had perused the NCOWS website, but was unsure of the details which you have addressed . I am comforted that my Remmies will cut the muster, as they are my main match revolvers. The Colt 1851's are in fact steel-framed .44's and  while that still does not make them correct they are nonetheless comfortable to my hand and fun to shoot at ordinary "CAS" events :-) .

As a refugee of Rondesvouz, and a former volunteer Blacksmith/Re-enactor  at state historic sites, I am a fan of History and enjoy "getting it right" and  the  educational aspects as much as making smoke. Over the holidays we attended a local museum, and I found myself explaining the finer points of matchlocks vs miquelette locks vs dog logs vs flintlocks to an ever growing group of citizens. .... at least I seemed to entertain them :-)

I saw that NCOWS seems to be well established in the area formerly occupied by the Kansa Tribe , are there any activities in the New Mexico Territories?

yhs
Professor Marvel
itinerant peddler, teller of fortunes, educator to the masses

[Buffalow Red]

 quoit:Mr. Haymaker, we had members who agreed with you.  In fact one of them helps moderate this forum and edits the magazine.
so is the magazine  back in buss
i heard it was no more

[Trap]

   Shoot Magazine has gone out of business.
   The Shootist, The NCOWS magazine, is alive and well.