1858 Frame Question

[Bryan Austin]

Forged Frame vs Steel Frame? I noticed this in the Taylor's 2007 Products Brochure.

[Pettifogger]

Forged vs. cast.

[Bryan Austin]

Forged vs. cast.

CRap...I knew that! 

[Advertising]

[Wolfgang]

Gun makers have to have a new  "Gimick" to keep selling guns.  At black powder pressure ( and cowboy smokeless loads ) a cast frame is plenty strong.  So having a forged frame doesn't accomplish anything, . . . unless yur trying to sell more guns to people who already have enough guns . . . . 

[Bryan Austin]

So am I correct to say:

Cast materials: have a grain structure like particle board.

Forged "linear grain" metals: are like fine linear grains in hardwoods.

[Professor Marvel]

So am I correct to say:
Cast materials: have a grain structure like particle board.
Forged "linear grain" metals: are like fine linear grains in hardwoods.

Well, kind of....
Wrought Iron by it's nature has a  grain structure much like wood due the impurities inherent in he
"bloom" iron (raw iron) and the rolling or hammering  process. "wrought" is the archaic form of "worked".

Most all modern steels begin life as a giant ingot which is then run through rollers numerous times to
produce various types of bar stock. One can make a case that this has a grain structure like wood.
If one were to use repeated hammering to "forge" a frame from stock, this would further refine the "grain".
Properly Blacksmithing this stock (into, say, a knife) does in fact work *with* this grain. If a knifesmith
uses the "stock removal" method, he cuts "across" the grain. Knife Affecianados make a great deal of
this.  There is a further step some Smiths use called "packing the edge" which is said to more tightly compress
the steel, "with the grain" prior to refining by grinding

But  Industrial forging is a one- step process using a massive stamping (forging) machine that does the
work in one blow. This would compact the steel part (somewhat like "packing the edge")which is desirable,
 but doesn't affect the "grain" very much.

If one casts a steel frame, and it cools slowly, the molecular structure (grain) is essentially random, like your
particle board example.

If the manufacturer first casts the frame, then forges it (a common cost-saving method ) one would be hard pressed
to tell the difference.

If the frames are now subjected to heat treating of any sort, the resulting molecular alignment of the steel
will have far more structural affect than any forged "grain" .

With modern steel and modern processes, it's really hard to tell the difference without a detailed chemical
or metalurgical analysis ... unless you are trying to blue it ...

your humble servant
Prof Marvel

[Flint]

The Forged Frame Ubertis are larger to accomodate a 6 shot factory conversion cylinder, the barrel centerline is higher, the older cast frame has a 1 inch center circle on the cylinder, the new cylinder for the forged frame is probably somewhat near 1-1/16 inch or a bit less in diameter.  They also might have considered the forged frame to be stronger and better for cartridge firing in their conversion.  I don't know if Kirst or R&D are making conversion cylinders for these new cap & ball frames or not.

[John Taylor]

Nothing wrong with cast frames, Ruger has been doing that for years. The type of metal used makes the biggest difference. A cast frame out of 4140 will be a lot stronger than a forged frame from mild steel. Also the heat treat can have lots to do with the strength and hardness.

[sundance44`s]

 Ruger boast a Investment cast frame ...S&W boast a forged frame ...and there  bullets out there that say Ruger pistols only or Ruger and Thompson pistols only .....So it makes you wonder if the forged frame is any better ...
I do know if you are planning on a gated conversion I would recomend a forged frame only because I`ve known several pards that have ran into casting bubbles in the frame while cutting the loading port ..so they ended up with half a bubble in the loading port.
The forged frame would be alot less likely to have these bubbles ....I noticed Uberti came out with the forged frame at the same time they introduced the 1858 with factory conversion ....They may have ran into the same problem ...Just a guess .

[Flint]

The steel used in Ruger's investment casting is a much different alloy than anything the Italians are casting or forging.

Ruger makes a much more robust gun than the S&W in 44 Mag, and would be a stronger gun than the S&W even if forged of the same steel S&W is using.

[Fox Creek Kid]

As a metallurgist once said "do you think a 747 is milled from a block of titanium?".

Ruger uses the "lost wax" ceramic slurry process and done PROPERLY is just as good as a forging if not better from what I have read.

[Gaucho Gringo]

And no matter how you look at it the new cast or forged frames are a lot stronger than the 1800's originals.

[mike6975]

question?,will this lul some people into thinkin they can go with hotter loads or smokeless loads with conversion cylinders and potentially blow themselves up?.i guess i'm going on the thought that they think  there "forged" gun will handle hotter loads and the frame won't "stretch" because of there newfangled pistol.

 Respectfully,


mike

[Flint]

The cylinders are rated for smokeless, both Kirst and R&D.  They are rated for "Cowboy" loads, standard SAAMI pressures, not +P or Magnums.  The frame can take ais absorbed by the 4140 steel cylinder.

The reason Uberti enlarged the Remington cylinder was to allow 6 shots, more so than for strength.  The standard "58" Remington cylinder is too small to accept 6 rims.  The R&D angled the chambers 1/2 degree to allow the 6 rims to fit in the circle, and Kirst made thier cylinder a 5-shot.  The original Remington factory conversions were 5-shot.