Metal finish on period original pieces.

[J.J. Ferrett]

What was seen more in the 1860-1880 period?? Blued or Browned metal?

I am one who much prefers a nice browning job (which isnt uniform but has CHARACTER) than a deep flat blue.

What does everyone else prefer?

[Adirondack Jack]

I agree.

I get a lot of good comments on the vaquero I plum browned using Birchwood Casey stuff.  I is uneven and shows nice wear, yet still provided better corrosion resistance than blue.

[J.J. Ferrett]

......... and when you DO get a couple of rust spots on the brown finish, just spray with Ballistol and wipe off. I get a lovely dark brown/black patina  from this which I believe ADDS to the looks.


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In High School, I had A.D.D., which isnt a really good G.P.A.!!!!
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[sundance44`s]

I`m swaying to the brown look myself these days ...Just finished a Lyman GP rifle , did a browning job on it ....sooner or latter i`m gonna strip naked one of my Remmies and do it in browning too .
Been told the Remmies were all done blue back in the day only reason i haven`t already done it  ... but heck i would have heard a different drummer back then too , i do like to be different and the brown finish just looks so natural on some pieces ....if anyone has already browned one ..please show some pictures .

[Adirondack Jack]

Here's the vaq.  a short time after it was done:


And after it wore a while:


It gets mistaken for an old colt until folks get up close

I thinka  Remmie would look great.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I think you'll find that by the time Colt, Winchester, S&W, et al were mass producing their products, blue finishes had replaced brown finishes. Brown finishes were more common with craftsman type gunsmiths who built guns one at a time, lock, stock, and barrel. That's just a guess, but it is an educated guess. The limited reading I've done on the subject says that shortly after gun manufacturing became a factory process, rather than a one at a time craftsman type process, old fashioned rust blueing was seen as too labor intensive and the factories changed over to blued finishes of various types.

I'd post a photo here of my 'antiqued' Colt, but photbucket seems to down right now.

[J.J. Ferrett]

Driftwood, yeah, that sounds like it should be right. Production line and blueing salts/tanks vs one at a time and browning.

and....

better than a Remmie???

A brace!!


(thumbnail)

[Adirondack Jack]

Fine lookin' shooters JJ.  They got character for days

[St. George]

The finish as applied on the pieces during that time frame was blue - or casehardening and blue.

That 'brown' finish was called 'rust' - and was the result of much exposure to the elements and relatively little care, as well as what chemical effect the propellant used happened to have on the exposed metal.

Not that the sort of 'care' we lavish today was lacking - but in poor weather conditions - a weapon carried in a wet holster or saddle scabbard took far more of a beating then, than it might today.

I remember reading an account of a Civil War Officer stating that they kept their Colts hooked onto a tent pole in an attempt to keep them dry, because they rusted so quickly in the rainy season.

Today - everybody has some sort of oil and other cleaning supplies - but back then - a principal method of cleaning involved hot, soapy water and what oil as could be found.

That sort of treatment does take a toll on a finish that was never durable in the first place.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy again

While it is true that many old guns that had been left in the white, meaning the steel was left raw with no finish at all, developed a patina of rust over time, Browning was also a type of finish that was applied on purpose to protect the steel from corrosion.

ALL Bluing and Browning processes are a form of inducing oxidation on the surface of the steel, to protect the underlying steel from further oxidation. In other words, oxidize the top surface of the steel and you cut off the rest of the steel from contact with the oxygen in the air, preventing further oxidation.. Since 'rust' is just one form of iron oxide, it could almost be said that causing a controlled amount of surface 'rust' will protect the underlying steel from further rusting. A little bit too general, but you get the idea. The chemical processes of bluing, browning, and ordinary 'rust', are slightly different, but they all result in an oxide layer that insulates the body of the metal from further contact with oxygen. Normal everyday rust is crumbly, and peels off. When it peels off, fresh steel is exposed to the oxygen in the air, and the corrosion continues. But controlled Bluing and Browning processes form a thin layer of oxide that does not crumble away, and protects the steel.

In the case of old blued guns hung on a tent pole, the blue produced at the time just was not as effective a barrier to oxygen as modern blues are. I am not an expert on the various modern blueing processes, but I do know they produce a very robust surface. I had a Cimarron revolver a couple of years ago that had been finished with their 'charcoal' blue. It was more like some of the old blues from the 19th Century. It was a brilliant blue color, but it was not very durable and did not provide much protection against oxidation. Within one year, the blue had been completely worn off the backstrap by the salt and sweat of my hand. The underlying steel turned a dull, 'battleship gray' in color. This was the first stages of oxidation. I suspect most of the old guns we see today that are brown, or rusted, went through a similar process.


Now that photobucket is back up and running, I'm posting a photo of one of my Colts. This is a 2nd Gen gun, made in 1968, and when I bought it somebody had already stripped off all the original finish, and it was already a pretty nice 'battleship gray' in color. Almost all the color is gone from the case hardening too. After several years of digesting nothing but Black Powder loads in CAS, the ejector rod housing is starting to develop a very nice brown patina, but it does not show up very well in this photo.

I have had several folks tell me I should send my Colt out to be refinished. The truth is, it is a parts gun. The grip frame and trigger guard are from a similar gun, but are not original to this gun. So, I am not so concerned with making it look brand, spanky new.

The fact is, I like it just like it is.

[J.J. Ferrett]

Its amazing how, once someone explains it simply; everything becomes clear.
The wet leather alone makes perfect sweat box. Must try this when i next mould an holster, may even post results. Gives me a perfect excuse to buy a pair of the short Remmies.

There is something in me (and most here, i will guess) that just cant leave things be. Got a pair of Remmies, looked at the deep Italian blue, and attacked the parts with vinegar. 15 mins later, nice shiny metal.
The 'browning' took a few weeks (months) with repeated carding and some application of hot blue in areas to enhance 'age'.
I didnt want these to look 130 years old, I was aiming more like 4-5 years of wear and use. I had seen pics and just tried to copy.
At the same time I attempted an action job, and installation of the Konversion cylinders. One action is perfect, I overdid the other. Luckily, its just $20 down as I have a set of 'spares' internals. So i get to do it all again... grin

The whole experience was magical.


Some people question me when I tell them about CAS, and wonder how it could ever be educational! Lord, now I'm a gunsmith... cackle, yeah right!

[J.J. Ferrett]

That Hoglegs a beaut!
Period? I would look at that and say that it had a nice couple of years use with regular practice. Its gorgeous.

For comparison, here are pics of a Colt that I currently have (and is up for sale). 1905, Early smokeless. I would guess its not had much use at all over the last 80 years. 45 Colt.




Shooter? Well, except for the fact that it shoots 5" high at 25 feet, it groups nicely. It loves BP a little more than smokeless, but thats to be expected.
Condition?? I have had a couple of vendors at gun show tell me 20%, but, thats an aweful lots of blueing for a 20% gun, and the rifling is nice and clear. No barrel pitting.

[rifle]

There's two kinds of oxide on guns that are brown. One is bad and never stops. The other is good and forms a barrier. I call them ferrous oxide(like rusty metal on old Fords) and ferric oxide( like the browning on guns). Some of the browning solutions available are too much the bad rust and cause a problem where it can't be stopped even with neutralizing the surface with water and baking soda. I've tried plenty of browning solutions since I build muzzleloader rifles. There are browning solutions out there that are akin to the custom rust blue in consistancy and uniformity and complete coverage. Birchwood Casey Plum brown doesn't seem to one of those since I've never seen any firearms that had a nice browning from that. Laurel Mountain Browning Degeaser is the BEST. You have to degrease before using the chemical but the browning attained is a thing of beauty. The carding process with rubbing the surface at the right time to remove the ugly ferric oxidation(comes off easy like red powder) to expose the ferrous underneath that is dark and protective needs to be learned but it's easy. A carding brush from Brownells that's a soft brass bristled brush works really well. The finish from the above mentioned chemical can be done to be dark chocolate brown and as smooth and blemish free as the best custom rust blue from a pro gunsmith. One trick to use after the browning is as complete as the chemical makes it and after neutralizing the chemical on the gun part is to hang the firearm on a thick wire and heat it some with a propane torch and wipe on boiled linseed oil. Heat until there's a little smoke. Wipe off excess. Uniform and dark and fine grained browning. Beautiful. I know some like the blotchy look since that inefficient browning looks imperfect like antique but some can appeciate a good dark browning. A person can boil the gun or gun part before the inseed oil thing and turn ther part black. Nice matt rust blue black.  Anyway back in the day Colt used a heat blue for quite awhile. Charcoal blue was to put the gun in a bed of red hot coals and periodically take it out and wipe it with a lime rag or fish oil rag to darken it. Carbon is formed from heating organics on the steel to get a darker heat blue or rust blue or browning. The other type of bluing was to heat the metal in molten potasium nitrate untill it was blue like todays charcoal blue from Uberti and then darken it using sperm oil and heatin the gun for a few hours at arounf 400 degrees. I don't know exactly what sperm oil was or if it is available today . I think it was some concoction made with whale oil from the sperm whale. It was popular back in the day. Anywhooo.......one of my tricks for antiguing revolvers is to use Belgian Blue. Apply to steel. Boil in distilled water and reapply and reboil untill the desired affect is attained. It can be done in no time until the gun is a beautiful black or done short and get a patina looking brown. Cool stuff. The barrels of the cap&ball revolvers don't get as black as the cylinders because of the steel alloy the barrels are made from. The cylinders of the cap&ballers always turn black and uniform and wear really well. The barrels are kind to a person looking for the antique look since their steel turns a beautiful dark plum brown. Exactly like antiques that aren't damaged from rust but were taken care of and over time attained that truely beatiful dark plum colored patina. The cylinders can be Belgian blued and stopped short of turning pure black and get a pretty good match to the dark plum patina looking barrels. Some of the older cap&ballers barrels and cylinders react the same to Belgian Blue since the steel must be the same and not a different one for the cylinders and a softer more economica to machine steel in the barrels. I guess cartridge guns would attain a good uniform Belgin Blue since the steel is not alloyed to be as soft as the barrel steel of percussion revolvers. The weird alloy of the percussion revolver barrels doesn't even seem to take a good rust BLUE chemical. They never turn from thin bluing to a good dark uniform complete blue/black. Of course one never kows for sure untill they try the process on the gun to see if the process works well on the different types of steel. One cool way to get a good antique lookin finish that isn't too rusty looking is to use 44/40 cold blue and mix it with 1/4th Birchwood Casey cleaner degreaser and blue the gun with that. Some steels turn a dark charcoal blue looking color that is uniforn and looks like a custom blue job. Applied with steel wool and then played with by rubbing the gun with good clean soft flannel like "diaper" flannel that is damp but not drippy works wonders. What's cool about this process is,even though it wears quick, it's really easy to do and wears to a gun metal grey that looks like a well used real old gun.If the person wants the dark charcoal blue look back it's as easy as cleaning the gun to re-apply the finish. Lots of fun actually.  Anyway, a person could get a nice charcoal blue if they can make a nice bed of red hot coals to heat a gun and then wipe it with a lime rag or fish oil until it looks right. Like in the old days when Colt did stuff like that. When people would say the guns were so black they looked blue. Anywhoo.....I think if a person wanted a gun that looked authentic to the period the finish wouldn't look so "antique" that it looked rusty. I think it would have traces of heat blue(charcoal blue) and a lot of the gun metal grey color. If one was to want a gun that would look right back in the day.

[sundance44`s]

Thanks for takeing the time for the long reply .. good reading ...with these cold winter days , something to think about ..

[River City John]

I was going to post a link to the pics of my Leech & Rigdon that Ottawa Creek Bill stripped and refinished for me in a more authentic worn 'charcoal blue' and case-hardened, as if aged by use about 10 years after the War. Just beautiful. (He has removed the links evidently.)
I had changed out to Treso nipples, sports a darker walnut grip in an oil-rubbed finish, and was tweaked, polished and tuned internals by him and a local C 'n' P gunsmith.
I will get out the ol' digital camera and fire 'er up, see if I can get some good pics.

Hmmmm. . .seems to have gotten off subject as a Darksider post. Maybe best to post pics in "Gunsmithing" under 'Antiquing How To. . . .'

RCJ