Rifle: An original Winchester Model 1873 44 W.C.F. (44-40) shipped in 1889. Here's a photo ....



Lads, I got to wondering what this old rifle would do if I could sharpen up the sight picture from the usual blur that has become the state of affairs with these 58 year-old eyes. Figuring a tang sight would help, I was able to obtain an original early Lyman #1 which was available at the time this old '73 was shipped. Here's a photo of the tang sight ....



Today, I got to try it out and learned a few lessons about using this old sight in the process, which I'll discuss as I learned them.

I started off at 100 yards because I didn't know how bang on I had the windage. I fiddled around with the vertical until it was reasonably close, not paying attention whether I last was screwing the sight up or down. I slowly took five shots and strolled on down to take a look. The five shots formed a 2 & 7/8" group (100 yards). Not bad, but I had expected better. I think there were a couple of factors involved in this large group, but I didn't clue in yet. Here's a photo of this target (Target A) ....



Well, that group, large as it was, looked good enough to try the rifle out at 200 yards so I took the walk down to the 200 yard backers and tacked up my usual target. That 8 & 1/2 x 11 piece of paper looks pretty small at 200 yards, and the black spot was really small. I took a couple of sighter shots to figure out how high to screw up the tang sight, then I took three slow shots and walked on down to see what was happening. I do recall that for this group, I had last raised the sight, rather than lower it. Glory be!!! Shiver me timbers! Those three shots went into a 1 & 1/4" group! I ain't never shot a group that small at 200 yards in all my born days. I headed back to the bench to take two more shots, confident that I was probably going to mess up that nice group (I wanted a five-shot group). I took those two shots and then made that 200 yard walk back to see what had happened. Good thing no one else was there. Four shots had gone into 1 & 13/16" but the fifth shot was a major dropper some 6 & 1/2" below but still giving a total horizontal spread of about 1 & 3/4". There seems to be a law of the universe that a fantastic group will always have a dropper or a flyer. It reminds me of the Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh that was given him to keep him humble. I think the problem is my crimp. This batch was crimped on the forward driving band rather than the crimping groove. I am using different kinds of brass. Most cartridges were quite snug on chambering because I'm sizing my bullets to .431 since my groove diameter is .431 and .431" is the largest bullet I can chamber. However, I noticed that there was varying degrees of snugness, but the occasional cartridge was quite tight and one was finger loose. This could affect the pressure and, hence, the vertical drop at 200 yards. I'm going to try crimping in the crimping groove for the next batch to get a more uniform crimping pressure when the cartridge is chambered. Here's the target (Target #1) ..



I pinned up another target at 200 yards and took five slow shots, but I knew I was sloppy. I had also very slightly lowered the tang sight by a hair. The group was awful, with three shots giving me about a 4" group and two slightly off the paper. I decided to be a bit more careful on the next group and pinned up a new target. This one was no great shakes either, with four shots giving me a 4 & 1/2" group, but the fifth was a flyer into the top left hand corner of the paper. What was going on? Here is a photo of this third target (Target 3) ...



I went back to shoot a 100 yard target instead. I was thinking about my groups and decided that it might be making a difference depending upon whether I was screwing the tang sight up, or down. The really nice 200 yard group was obtained after raising the tang sight. The awful 200 yard group was obtained after lowering it a hair. I decided to always shoot only after screwing the sight up rather than down. Part way through the five shots I accidentally hit the tang sight with my thumb and a little bell went off. I realized that I had unconsciously hit that tang a few times during my shooting. This old tang sight has some very slight wobble to it and a whack with the thumb might move it slightly in windage. I checked my target and found it to be decent in vertical spread (remember I had decided to only shoot after raising the sight, rather than lowering it) but it had a bit of a spread in windage, giving me a five shot group of 2 & 11/16 at 100 yards. This isn't the worst group I've ever seen at 100 yards, but I still wondered about that whack with the thumb. Here is a photo of this 100 yard group (Target B) ....



I only had three rounds left, so I figured I'd try them at 100 yards again, but a) it would be with the upward pressure of the screw (as I had already figured out) and b) I would be careful not to whack the tang sight with my thumb when cranking in another round. I squeezed off the three shots and went down to look. The three shots gave a 1 & 3/8" group at 100 yards. I might be on to something here. Here's a photo of the target (Target C) ....



Summary of what I learned:

1. Modern reproductions are probably machined to higher tolerances and won't have the very slight vertical slop that this old original has when cranked up, but this sight seems to work best when I raise the sight rather than lower it when I set it at a particular range.
2. I'll try not to whack the tang sight with my thumb when cranking in another round. This is probably fine with a modern reproduction machined to higher tolerances, but not with my old original tang sight which has a very slight windage wobble when wiggled with the fingers.
3. I found I could shoot better if I brought my eye closer to the tang sight. I have been leaning my head back to get as far away as possible from the sights so that my old eyes had a better chance of focusing on the sights. With a tang sight, I don't have to do this.
4. Work on my crimping so that each cartridge chambers with the same amount of resistance.

Kirk,
THANK YOU for the awesome pics and range report. Those vintage sights on your vintage '73......Outstanding!

I have some newer tang sights and although there is no slop up and down, there is a bit sideways.

Now for some black powder...................

w44wcf

The temptation to try 'er out with BP is too much to resist. I'm sure I'm going to succumb soon. I only have Goex right now (FFFg and FFg) but I'd prefer to try Swiss if I can get my hands on some.

KirkD
Hope you get the opportunity to shoot the Swiss 2f . You will be amazed at how clean this powder is . Thanks for the Range Report , this will help members with the load of their choice . We all need lots of choices .
                                         

The reason you got better vertical accuracy when going up rather than when you backed off a smidgen is the "lost motion" in the threads, just due to the clearance machined into the threads. If a closer tolerance was designed into the threads you'd probably have to turn the elevation knob with a wrench (and would probably gall the threads in the process)! So far as the wobble in windage, that is due to the clearances between the parts of the pivot. About the only thing locking the sight in the raised position is a spring-loaded ball/detent. Vernier tang sights often have a locking knob to prevent this wobble.

Another factor that "contributes" to some inaccuracy in aperture ("ghost ring" or "peep") sights is inherent, though it can be the best iron sight arrangement. The late, great Col. Townsend Whelen, in the early-mid 20th Century considered to be the dean of riflemen, in his book, "Why Not Load Your Own", wrote,
"If you have fairly good eyesight [italics mine  ] with or without correcting spectacles, and you how to aim...your error of aim at 100 yards with various types of rifle sights will be approximately as follows:

Open rear sight........................................................Unpredictable
Aperture rear, gold or ivory front.................................1-1/2" to 2"
Aperture rear, black post front....................................1"
Aperture rear, hooded aperture front..........................1/2" to 3/4"
2-1/2 power hunting scope........................................1/4" to 1/2"
.
.
.
20 power target scope.............................................Practically none"

This was written in 1957, and does not take into account inherent accuracy or lack thereof in the rifle.

So, all in all, I'd say you have a tackdriver 1880's vintage!

Of course, if you aren't happy with it, just ship it to me and I'll pay the freight!

That is interesting information, Trailrider. I'm looking forward to getting back to the range to try another shoot with this old gun. It wasn't until the very last three-shot group that I started figuring it all out.

Nice article 38-55.
You may be able to overcome the thread slack on the up and down adjustment by pushing down on the top of the rear sight, after adjustment. This should result in the threads being in the same position at each setting.
The Swiss noted an improvement in recruit marksmanship when they changed from the open sighted K-31 to the peep sighted Stgw.57 in 1955.

Size matters.    The size of the aperture will also affect accuracy. The advantage of the aperture is that the eye automatically centers the image of the front sight, even with poorer vision. So a smaller hole will improve accuracy...up to a point! When I made the aperture disk for a vernier tang sight I made for an HiWall, I started with a small diameter drill. (Don't ask me how small. At this late date I can't remember, and can't get at the piece right now.)  Once I got the disk mounted on the sight and the sight on the rifle, I looked through it, and saw a bunch of lines criss-crossing in the hole as I focused on the front sight. I took progressively larger diameter drills to enlarge the hole until these interference lines disappeared. If you see interference lines, the hole is too small. When the hole is large enough to make the lines vanish, it is as fine as you can practicabally use. HOWEVER, while the smallest aperture is great for high accuracy on the range against a bullseye target, it may NOT be ideal for hunting. A larger ring will still give good accuracy with poorer eyesight, but will be faster in acquiring a traget...the so-called "ghost ring".  When I was actively hunting with a Lyman 48 receiver sight, I would sight in at the range with the insert in and then remove it for the acutal hunt. (Always check the zero after removing the insert in case the hole in the insert is off-center.)  Probably the ideal hunting/combat sight, IMHO, is found on a standard battle sight of an M-1 Garand. For better work on the range, the smaller aperture National Match sight is the ticket, along with the narrower front sight blade.

Quote from: KirkD on August 22, 2012, 10:34:57 AM
The temptation to try 'er out with BP is too much to resist. I'm sure I'm going to succumb soon. I only have Goex right now (FFFg and FFg) but I'd prefer to try Swiss if I can get my hands on some.

Kirk,
I find that Goex will group almost as well as Swiss but the big difference is that Goex will "foul out" (hard ring of fouling building at the muzzle and extending back into the barrel in 15 rounds or so (427098 2 grease groove bullet) with accuracy deteriorating quickly thereafter.   With Swiss,  I can fire many more rounds accurately (50+) due to its moist burning ability.

I did work with Accurate Molds on the design of the 43-215C  bullet that does allow for many repeated shots accurately (50+) with Goex. I wanted a bullet that would shoot accurately at extended distances so the original 44-40 bullet nose profile was maintained. The additional lube capacity would aid in many rounds being fired accurately using Goex, Diamondback, Schuetzen and Kik.
Thankfully the 43-215C has fulfilled those expectations.

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png

If you are coming to the States in the near future. let me know and I'll arrange to send some 43-215C to your destination.


Trailrider,
Thank you for a very good synopsis on aperture sizes.  Personally, for target shooting I find that a .04 aperture is about right for me which makes both the front sight and target sharp an distinct.   Recently, I competed in a postal match for leverguns and found myself at the range with the .06" arpeture in the tang sight which, for me, makes the front sight a bit blurry. I did find that the front sight cleared up if I held the bead closer to the bottom of the aperture.

w44wcf    

     

Thanks for that offer. I'd love to try out those bullets. I'll pm you in the next week or so.

Trailrider, valuable info. I'm looking forward to getting proficient with these tang sights.