Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Leather Shop => Topic started by: Nolan Sackett on November 07, 2006, 09:00:21 PM
-
Here's some instructions for some of the old time dyes I'm working with these days:
1) Black: VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon - these are original old formulas)
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
Another method is to cover iron scraps with sour beer, and allow them to stand for a month or more; then strain off the beer and bottle as before.
A third method is to boil sulphate of iron in vinegar; mix some brewer's yeast with beer and allow it to stand for twenty four hours, then skim off the yeast and add the vinegar.
Instead of iron shavings you can use steel wool. To use the steel wool burn off the oil first - I dip it in acetone and use a propane/blow torch and light it off in an old pan with a lid, just in case you need to put the flame out. Take all precautions and it will work fine. The only problem with steel wool is it often has copper and other metals in the "mix" which can sometimes add a greenish tint.
After the "dye" (actually it's a reagent) dries I then neutralize with a slurry of baking soda and room temp water, about a 1/2 cup baking soda to a quart of water. Then I let the leather dry until just damp and apply a light coat or two of oil (I generally use olive oil, Lexol, Conditioner, or Lexol non-greasy Neats Foot). When the "dye" first dries it may look bluish or grayish at first and sometimes a second coat is needed, but normally the neutralizing and oil will turn it black.
2) Brown: I use black walnut hulls (If they are not available locally - the fresh green hulls are best - you can buy them dried on line from various vendors - to find a vendor search for walnut dye, etc.) Put a pound or so of the crushed hulls in an old stocking and place in a pan of distilled water so that the water covers the walnut hulls about an inch. Cover it and simmer at a low boil for several hours and then let cool overnight - keep an eye on the water level. The next day boil again and let cool overnight. Again watch that the water level does not get too low, but you do want it to get fairly thick. Once it's cool drain off the liquid be sure to squeeze all of the liquid out of the bundled walnut hulls. Save the walnut hulls - hang them up to dry and you can use them a couple of times more. The liquid will go bad so either keep it frozen or add 3/4 of a cup of rubbing alcohol to a quart of the dye. This is the dye I used on the Slim Jim in the DVD. It will come out anywhere from a light brown/gray to a dark grayish brown before oiling (I use light olive oil a lot for oiling and then set it in the sun to darken) - the color will depend on the leather - every piece is different, how long you let it soak, and how strong the dye is.
I always do a test on a scrap of every new hide, I use only American tanned hides - mostly from Wickett & Craig. You can also mix the two dyes, which gave me a rusty/black on the pieces shown below. I used a 60/40 mix of walnut to vinegaroon on the belt and a 75/25 on the holster:
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/1-gallery2/shaikh-belt-2-2.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/1-gallery2/holster-zambiasi-tx-jstrap.jpg)
And finally you can also use a thin wash of regular spirit dyes over any of the above to "adjust" the color..............
-
As always you give us a lot of informations.........GREAT!! I'll try the Brown receipe.
The holsters looks like the one you are making for me......... ;)
-
Wow, great, Nolan. I've been looking for just this information for quite a while. I'll definitely get started on it. Many thanks for posting this. I'll make it a sticky for future pards to find easily.
Lessee if I have this right, now. Soak chunks of iron in cider vinegar and drink beer for a month or until you turn green.....
-
I keep a 55 gallon drum of rusty water in the back yard. I've got soft metal straps suspended in it that are always rusting. It's large enough I can color saddle skirts in it. I have mine build up off the ground with bricks so I can light a fire under it in the winter. If it has set for a while, I build a good fire under it anyway. This gets the iron oxide movin' again for a good even coloration.
Will
-
I like that idea, Will. Does that produce a good black? I know using the vinegar sure does.
-
You can vary the coloration by the length of time you leave it in. You can get shades of brown to very dark black just fiddlin' with the amount of time you leave it in. It soaks in faster on edges, cuts and stamps, so you can get something of an antiqued or used look. There are two "up" sides to this method. First, you can do large projects like saddles quickly. Secondly, the rusty water doesn't mess with the pH balance of the leather as much as vinager does. The down side is, maintainance and consistency. You have to mess around with it quite a bit before you know exactly how to get what you want every time.
For smaller projects, where the lifetime of the leather isn't going to be an issue, the vinager method is probably easiest. And, if you are treating it afterwords with extra virgin olive oil, you are helping address the pH balance issue.
Will
-
I like the idea of getting the antique finish that way. I fiddled with some baking soda and water the other day and wound up burning the leather by doing it too much. A slight dunking did a nice antique to the edges, though.
-
I've got a question that fits right in here. When I tool a piece of leather I take special care to ensure that the piece is cased correctly and the tooling looks great. Sometimes ( most times ) after I dye the piece the tooling has lost some of its depth and crispness. Any ideas or tips?
RTR
-
Hey R.T., what kind of dye are ya' usin'?
Will
-
I haven't encountered that problem. When I dye a tooled piece, I only apply the dye to the surface, although when I mold it, I soak it good without loosing any of the definition. Are your swivel knife cuts deep enough? Are the stamps making a good impression in the top grain? How are you dying the leather? Maybe some of the pards here will be able to shed more light on it.
-
Will G. I'm using fielblings oil based dyes, I don't care for the way the alcohol based dyes dry the leather out. I also use olive oil. My problem really pops up when I'm doing a darker color, especially black. I wonder if when I apply the dye if I'm using too much at once and re-hydrating the leather to the point that the tooling is swelling? By the way... I would like to thank you for the great patterns I've used them many times I love the results.
Marshal Will W. I'm sure my cuts are deep enough, my tooling looks great (IMHO). It comes out with that nice burneshed edge look. The problem is that after I dye a project it seems to wash out, the edges are just not as crisp as it was before I applied the dye. I mentioned earlier, I wonder if I'm trying to get the dye on too fast. maybe I need to apply the dye in lighter applications just more of them?
I really appreciate this forum and all the great help.
Thanks,
RTR
-
I've always done simpler designs when dying black because the detail gets lost in the darker shades. Perhaps the difference is that, rather than the design loosing its definition. When I tool browns and tans, I do more detail because the design shows better.
-
I looked for "pure" cider vineger atthe store and could only come up with cider vineger "reduced to 5% Acidity"...I used that so I am hoping it will work.
Is there a stronger version I should be using??
-
Hey R.T.,
I can't figger out what the problem would be, given what you have said. If you have cased the leather right and the surface is dry enough to take the impression like clay, I can't think of anything that would mess with your impressions, (as long as it has been allowed to dry thouroughly before dying). When I soak tooled leather in my rust tank, it comes out of the tank "looking" like it has lost some depth in the impression. But when the leather has dried, it's as good as when I finished. You are using Fiebing's oil dye, (which is the right choice for store brands), so that isn't the problem. If you are buying an off-brand or out-of-country leather, that might be the problem. But, given what you have said, I don't have a clue, and it only took me eight sentences to say it.
Will
-
I looked for "pure" cider vineger atthe store and could only come up with cider vineger "reduced to 5% Acidity"...I used that so I am hoping it will work.
Is there a stronger version I should be using??
When I made mine, I used 5% white vinegar and it still worked just fine.
-
Will,
I think you just hit the nail on the head. I'm not waiting for the project to dry. I didn't know it would make a difference. I guess I get too excited to see the final outcome. I'll wait a day or two before dyeing. Thanks for the input.
RTR
-
Worked up cider and steel wool dye and it works great!...even after only a week of soaking the steel wool in vinegar.
Next question...does the baking soda kill the vinegar smell, does the oil help get rid of it or is it just a matter of letting it air out for a couple years?
-
My solution only took a week or so, too. It has now turned almost solid black over time, but it still works fine.
I checked my samples and couldn't detect any vinegar smell. I submerged them in baking soda/water until they stopped bubbling. After dry, I put a very light coat of olive oil on them.
-
For anyone wanting to get some black walnut hulls for making dye, Major 2 sent me a good link for some. It's powdered so it will probably need to be strained after you make it, but it is available for those who don't have access to walnut trees. I will probably order some and compare the color dye I get from it with what I make from the local English walnut hulls.
Order your black walnut hulls here (http://www.bestdeal.org/essential-camden/h-waln-1lb.html)
Many thanks, Major 2.
-
Howdy Gents
I just found this post , and its just what I've been looking for. Let me start by thanking Nolan Sackett , Will Ghormley and Will Wingam, for all this great information, it seems like I'm just about able to find anything I want to know on this forum . I have a question about the walnut hulls for dying leather brown, the way I'm reading your post is, your suposed to submerge the leather in the walnut hull dye, is this the only way to do it, I was thinking that I could use a felt pad and rub or lightly dab the dye on, am I wrong in thinking this way, I thought I would have more control this way, I'm looking to get that brownesh-gray look, I think this has a real old look to it, I have a bum hand, so all of my work is stamped, and I don't want to loose the difinition that's in the leather, I read the other post and that seems to be a worry with this type of dying. Like RT was saying, and this is so true , you have to let your leather dry throughly before dying, and after dying let it dry throughly before putting any oil on. So if it's ok to rub or dab the dye on I would sure like to know. And one other thing , I would like to thank Will Ghormley for the paterns that you put out for us Pards, I have several of them and use them all the time when making my belts and holsters, this has opened up a hole new world to me, for this I thank you , and my Mentor Wayne Christenson, says howdy, he met you at the John Wayne 100 Birthday celebration, he's the owner of Standing Bears Leather , here in Reseda , California. He's the one that had the neat saddle bags.
Thanks again Pards :D
Ten Wolves Five Shooter ;) :D ;D
-
I think you can probably wipe the dye on but having not made any yet, maybe Nolan will be able to advise. I just rounded up some fresh hulls to make some dye. These hulls are from English walnuts and I expect to get a slightly lighter color than with the black walnut hulls. Time will tell, I guess.
-
Concentrate a batch until it is the consistency of thin syrup, add a 1/2 cup of rubbing alcohol per qt (adjust to whatever amount you have). This works pretty good as a wipe on.
With the walnut dye what I do most of the time is dye the piece first, let dry until it is the right dampness for tooling, tool, finish up as normal.....
-
Howdy Nolan and Will
I appreciate your reply, I've been looking for this information for a long time now, I like the looks of your dyed leather Nolan, it really has that antique look about it. Will now that I'm armed with this information, I'm going to give this a shot.
Thanks again Nolan Sackett and Will Wingam :D
Ten Wolves 8) ;) :D ;D
-
Ten wolves - you're welcome. As for dying I use both modern and traditional dyes, sometimes mixed together i.e in layers that is........I offer advice on dying/aging also in my DVD on frontier holsters....
-
Hi Noland
I'm interested Noland, so how do I go about getting you dvd, I tried to access your web site from your profile page, but I got a ( web not responding notice ) let me know how to get this, you've got a customer. And thanks for your comback,
Ten Wolves :D ;D
-
Noland I tried your web site several different ways and they say the web site is down, ??? :P :-X so if you can you can pm me, we can go that way. talk to you later :D or you can give me your land line.
Ten Wolves ;D
-
Just got a phone call from Nolan Sackett, not only does he have website problems, now he can't log on to CASCITY so anyone needing to contact him, call him at 970-259-8396... Tenwolves, I sent ya a PM with this number too...
-
Thanks Wymore Wrangler :D ;D >:(
Ten Wolves ;) :D ;D
-
Thanks, Will and Wymore :D
I talked to Nolan Sackett today, and the DVD is on its way to me wright now, He said his web site has been down since last sat. but it's back up now, hes having troble getting back on with cas city for some reason, but hopes to have that fixed soon also :D
You Pards Take Care Now
Ten Wolves ;) :D ;D
-
Howdy Gents :)
I've already posted this picture , on show your stuff , but thought maybe I should post it here too . This is the finished rig , where I used Nolan Sacketts old time dyes and antiquing methods, it takes a lot more time to do this but I totaly think it's worth it . I've been trying to get this look for a long time know , with no result , until now, Chuck Burrows dvd is worth the money spent .
Thanks Chuck ;D
Ten Wolves ;) :D ;D
-
Howdy!
10 Wolfs ...
VERY nice!
-
Howdy Steel Horse
thanks for the kind words,I had a lot of fun antiquing this gun belt and the holsters and knife sheath, I learned lots of good stuff from Chuck Burrow DVD on holster making ,the old time dying , and antiquing was just what I was looking for. process takes a lot more time , but I think it's totally worth it....
Have a Happy New Year :D ;D
Ten Wolves ;) :D
-
Not picking on Ten Wolves here, as in part I'm to blame (via my video due to my not checking the facts), but the following statement regarding natural dyes (in this case coffee)
and DON'T FORGET TO PUT THE IRON IN,you need it for a mordant,
is a misconception regarding any natural dye made of a material with a high tannin content since tannin is a mordant in and of itself.....
Tannin and tannic acid: - Good mordant if tans or browns are required - Gives dark shades - http://www.azerbaijanrugs.com/arfp-natural_dyes_mordants.htm
Adding iron can increase the color depth, but it also tends to "muddy" or gray out the color...........reducing your dye without adding iron will usually increase the color depth without muddying the color......
examples of iron and no iron:
1) Botas: the flap was dyed in heavily reduced walnut with no iron added - note the dark brown without gray. The grayish legs were dyed with a light walnut with iron...
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/1-gallery-2007/Botas_1860-70s_001-2.jpg)
2) Cuffs: brown - dark roast coffee and nothing else brewed STRONG and then reduced by about half....
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/1-2009/cuffs-whited-090103.jpg)
For those who may doubt my statements or would like to further their knowledge I suggest looking it up - a couple of more sources regarding natural dyes & mordants - there is plethora of them, most regarding cloth, but usually the knowledge gained can be applied to leather:
http://www.abbeycolor.com/organic-dyes.php
http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html
Hopefully this thread will be taken in the spirit it is meant - to broaden our knowledge base.........
-
As a kid whose father liked free walnuts in the winter, I picked up many a black walnut and will testify to the dyeing effects. first my hands then the leather gloves I wore, after several years of picking up walnuts, my good leather gloves were black. They were used regular every day and treated a couple of times a year with neatsfoot oil, but they were black as night. Tannins are found in coffee, teas, and most if not all natural dyes in some form or another. I am a chemist not a biologist, but I think every plant has tannins in some amount from a little to a lot. Pyrogallo is a tannin that is found in acorns and walnut hulls. I mentioned earlier, but the Native Americans would toss walnut hulls in stream holes to "fish". Works like dynamite. The fish die and float to the top for easy collection. By doing it in a stream, the effect isn't permanent as it eventually washes down. I am pretty sure the conservation department treats it like fishing with dynamite, so no trips to the wooded stream please. I have had good luck coffee, especially soaking with the grounds themselves.
-
Thanks for the clarification, Chuck. The examples also help. Much appreciated.
-
Mogorilla, C.B., and others,
I like my Pecan dye better than any brown, but that is just my preference, I also use the Walnut, but the Walnut takes 3 times longer to get as dark as the Pecan, and the Pecan has a little redish to it!
One thing I was going to try, andI think it is to late. I was thinking about trying the Big pointy Surgar maple Pods (or at least that is what I have heard the trees called!
I have a couple other things that I am going to try, but at this time, I think it is best that I make some up first and then let people know!
If anyone knows of these pods I am talking about, they are about the size of a small ping pong ball, and have a ton of thistles on them! I would like to know if I am calling them by there right name!
Thanks
ACE
-
I happen to be the proud owner of those cuffs - they're actually much nicer and 'richer' looking in person...
Thanks again, Chuck...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
-
If anyone knows of these pods I am talking about, they are about the size of a small ping pong ball, and have a ton of thistles on them! I would like to know if I am calling them by there right name!
Thanks
ACE
Ace....I believe you're talking about Sweet Gum.. ;)
http://www.naturalsciences.org/funstuff/notebook/plants/sweetgum_balls.html
-
Hank, you are right!! That is what they are ::) ??? ::) I just couldn't remember the correct name! It don't cost anything hardly to cook a patch, so I thought I would see what I get!
Thanks Hank!
ACE
-
Howdy Gents
I was asked what I used to get the color on the holster and money belt below by several Pards here in the forum, so this is my recipe, and what and how I make my Coffee and nut dyes, it may be a little different than others, but it works well for me, I hope this will be of some help to anyone that wants to try making and using these natural dyes.
MAKING COFFEE & NUT DYES = HOW TOO's
Just so this doesn't get more complicated than it is.
#1 , DARK ROAST COFFEE 1# CAN OR MORE, it's up to you, I make about 10 to 12 QT. with this, and I use a 20 qt. pot with lid, if you have a 20 qt. iron pot with lid , use it if you can lift it...
#2, use some IRON, SHAVINGS, IRON NAILS NOT PLATED OR GALVANIZED, JUST SIMPLE IRON NAILS, a lot of your finish nails are iron, if it will rust, or will stick to a magnet it has IRON IN IT, but you want to clean off any oil or grease it may have on it before you put it in your pot, steel wool is OK but you have to burn the oil out of it, which is a pain, LOTS OF SMOKE. WITHOUT IRON AS A MORDANT, YOU CAN'T ACHIEVE MUCH COLOR, IF AT ALL......( IMHO ) especially if you want a deeper darker color.
#3 with 10 to 12 QT. of water in your pot, bring it to a boil, then turn the flame down to a slow simmer, and let cook with the LID ON, for about three hours or so, let cool over night, and then do the same thing again the next day, if you want to cook it three or four days go ahead and do so, just make sure you keep your water up and don't let it boil dry, and leave the lid on through the whole process.
#4 AFTER THE COFFEE DYE HAS COOLED, you can pour the whole works, COFFEE/COFFEE GRINDS/IRON/DYE, in a thick plastic container, for what ever size you need for what you're going to dye, ( small and deep for holsters ) ( large and flat for belts )
#5 PUT YOUR LEATHER in the container, and leave it SUBMERGED for 24 hours or more if you want.
#6 REMOVE YOUR LEATHER from the container, if it is a holster , you want to do your wet molding now, and let dry for 24 HOURS. if it is a belt, lay it out straight, so it will dry the way you want it.
#7 APPLY LEXOIL CONDITIONER, both sides of leather and let dry for a couple hours.
#8 APPLY NEATSFOOT OIL, a couple coats should do, but you can vary the color with the amount of oil you put on, LET DRY OVER NIGHT.
#9 THE FINISH is up to you, you can leave it the way it is now, or you can do like I did by using Gum Thraecanth at 40/60% water, and Bag Kote at 40/60% water, I use a spray bottle to apply this, just apply as you want and rub in, and when it looks the way you want , STOP... YOU can also finish your burnishing at this time.
#10 IF YOU WANT AN ANTIQUE LOOKING holster or belt, you will want to bend and twist your leather, to put some wrinkles in the leather, and give the leather that used look.
#11 AS A FINAL STEP, I apply a coat of Skidmores Leather Cream,
#12 NOW YOU WANT TO STORE YOUR DYE, I put the works in a empty cleaned CAT LITTER container, and I add a 1/2 cup of Rubbing alcohol to every QT. of dye, put the lid on tight and store.
#13 WHEN YOU WANT TO USE IT AGAIN, it will help to pour it all back in the pot and cook it again, the alcohol will burn off real quick, and you will have to add more at the end of your dying work, but this helps activate everything, you could even add more coffee at this time,
#14 JUST A NOTE, your dye should look like OLD MOTOR OIL, a dirty black, the Mexican one loop holster I did was dyed for 24 hours, and you can see the color of the coffee that came out when the leather was oiled, so have fun with this, you can create just about any shade or color you want by testing on scrap leather.
#15 When doing the NUT DYES, Get the nut as they have fallen off the tree, when the hulls are Green, you will get better color out of the Green hulls, you can use the other , but the green works best. you want to remove nuts after cooking and before submerging your leather in the dye, you can hang the nuts up in a stocking and let air dry, or you can freeze them and use them again, also when cooking the nuts, I like to cook them for three days with the cooling in between, and when dyeing I leave my leather work submerged for five days, this longer time allows the color pigment to really get into the leather. Follow up the same as the Coffee dye.
I hope this will make it easier to follow how to make these dyes
And a big thank you to Chuck Burrows for getting this natural dyes thread started
tEN wOLVES
-
TW
hey bud hows it going wanna cup of coffee LOL just wondering bout how long you simmer the coffee ive got bout 12 hours into it right now and bout if i could drink coffee LOL my house smells so good i just wanna have a drink but not up to chewing the brew LOL oh and i kkeep forgetting the nails LOL
Will when you talk bout soft metal in your rust tank what kind are you talkin bout and if you have pics of the look after it has soaked in the rust bath id be greatly thankfull
Cowboy316
-
Howdy Cowboy316
All the information is written down for you in the above HOW TOO post, take a few minutes to read through it , I think I have answered any question you might have, 12 hours is a long time , I'm not saying that's wrong, what I posted is how I did it, 3 hours simmering, let coll over night and do the process all over again, just take a look at my post, all your question should be answered in the How Too's I posted, you can also go to the beginning of this thread, Chuck Burrows explains in detail his method.
Good Luck, and have fun, oh yea hows the coffee taste ??? ::) :P :-X :-\ :'( :o
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
-
I have a mature walnut tree in my backyard, but I've not done anything with it. We've only been at this place about 6 months, and I don't know what kind of walnuts they are.
I read that green hulls are used. From past experience with a different tree, I know how messy these things are once the walnuts drop. If you have fresh walnuts right off the tree, can someone tell me what I need to do to them to use them for dye?
Thanks, JD
-
I used the hulls that have split and dropped the nuts already. If you pick them right after the nut falls, they're still green.
-
Thanks Marshall !
-
JD,
Wear gloves or join the Mafia! :o ;D
-
Yeah, I remember that part real well with the last walnut tree we had. All we ever did with those was give them away. They sure create a mess in the yard. Hopefully I can get some revenge on the walnut family by making some dye. We'll see.
Thanks Bob, I do appreciate the warning.
-
WOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! I gotta print this stuff out...
-
Marshall Will - could this post be incorporated into the Natural Dyes a How To thread?
-
JD,
I think there are different ways to use the walnuts! No Disrepect to Marshall Will, I make my dye out of them green! Marshall Will has told me that he makes his dye, after they dryed. i am going to see if I can pick up a few that the people and critters missed that are dry, and make some dye up, and see if there is a color difference? I also plan on doing the same thing with my pecans, because I do have my left over pecans that I made my dye out of last fall.
Later ACE
-
Thanks for that info Ace. I don't believe pecans are grown here in Oregon. Commercially all we do up here is hazelnuts, at least that I am aware of. Can you use pecans that you buy in a store, or are they too processed to be any good for dye?
Regarding Walnuts, do you have to remove the hull from the nut, or can you just through the whole thing in a pot to make dye?
Oh the questions we come up with :P
-
Like Ace I use the walnuts when green (a freined sends me a box every year from Georgia!) and I just cook up the whole thing, nut and all. After it cools I put on some rubber gloves and mash it all up and pull out the solid bits. These later get hulled and then the hard hulls are broken/ground up and thrown back in the pot........
-
Marshall Will has told me that he makes his dye, after they dryed.
I've done it both ways. I do understand that the green hulls do better.
Good idea to merge these, Chuck. It's done.
-
Natural COFFEE DYE.
I wanted to post this here since the subject of coffee dye comes up so often, so here it is,
quot from Marshal Will
How much coffee and how much iron? I may have to make some of this stuff. If it doesn't dye things the way I want, I can always drink it. ::)
Will, I use a one pound can of the DARK ROAST coffee, and about two heaping tablespoons of broken or crush iron, or you could use a dozen or so iron nails, I pour this into a 20 qt. pot filled 3/4 of the way up with water, bring to a boil, then reduce heat to a simmer, and simmer for about three or so hours, let cool over night, and then pour into a plastic container of your choice, but one deep enough to submerge your leather in. the dye my last rig was done in , I made a year ago, so it doesn't go to waste. when dying I leave my leather in the dye, submerged for 24 hours, then pull my leather out and rinse off with fresh water, if you're doing a belt place the belt on your bench straight or curved as you want it, when dried it will hold its shape pretty well, same with your holster, but you want to mold the holster to your gun at this time, let dry 24 hours, then condition with Lexoil conditioner, and after an hour , you can start oiling with either EVOO, or Neatsfoot oil, you will find you can vary the depth or darkness of the leather by the amount of coats of oil you apply, when you get it the way you want, let it dry over night, if it still looks the way you like it, you can either use Skidmores leather cream or use another sealer finish or nothing at all, that's open to you, or make it darker by applying more oil.
tEN wOLVES :D
-
Thanks for the info, TW. Can't be any stiffer than my dad's cowboy coffee he made when we were camping. ;D
-
Howdy pards..
I´m trying to get black walnut hulls, but I dont find it here in Sweden.
Can I order it ??? Would be fun to make my own dye, have made black
dye and thats a really nice color :)
-
BhB, I ordered some ground up walnut shells from a basket company a year ago or so. You put the hulls in a coffee pot, like a Mr. Coffee, and brew a pot. I bought a used Mr. Coffee at a thrift store for 5 bucks, and it works pretty good. The basket weaving people use it to dye their baskets.
This is the outfit I bought it from. The walnut hulls are the last item on the page, below all the Rit dyes.
Good luck, JD
-
Have to look that up JD. I live to far north or else I should
Pick them My self, but we dont have the trees here:-(
-
I posted one about trying vinegar and chewing tobacco. I read an article many years ago about using ammonia and chewing tobacco for a wood stain. I tried it on an old CVA Zouave and the color was a deep, brilliant red. I figured to try it with the vinegar and tobacco and stabilizing it with alcohol. Of course, I had better not get too close to any California lab rats...
-
Here is a Rig I just made as a gift for a friend of mine. The Rig is nothing fancy but the finish turned out reasonably well.
Attached is a slide show showing the dye process I used.
http://s278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/jvsaffran/Using%20Walnut%20Dye%20part%202/?action=view¤t=a42fc8ef.pbw
This rig was immersed in home brewed Walnut Dye for four hours followed by two coats of Neets Foot Oil and two coats of Skidmores. A couple of things I really like about this process is the uniformity of the color and the dye does not bleed off or stain clothing. I have learned how to suspend the work in the dye vat so there are no areas where the dye does not penetrate.
Again special thanks go to Ten Wolves for all of his help in getting me going on Walnut Dye's.
-
Excellent tutorial John, after this has been posted for a while, I'm going to add it to our FAX/HOW TOO'S thread, thanks for taking the time to do this, I know it will be and is appreciated by all.
tEN wOLVES :D
-
That's a fine rig, Johnny. The slide show is really well done. I love the natural dyes. Nice work.
Good idea, TW. It'll be a nice addition.
-
Johnny M. Thats a nice rig. The color is great. I can see where you put a lot of work into it to come up with that finish. He should be more than happy with it. I,m glad you and TW got me started with the Skidmores , especially you for your kind donation to me of it. Thanks John...Terry
-
Mighty fine looking rig there Johnny!
-
Soon I´m going crazy, I cant get black walnut hulls here in Sweden :'(
-
BHB, try an herbal shop. Apparently they make a tea out of them (could not pay me to drink it!). Anyway, I found mine at an herbal healing store. Did not tell them I was using it to dye leather to hold a firearm, probably would not have gone with their sensibilities. :D
-
Chuck recomends using distilled water with walnut dye but because of evaporation when "stewing" the walnut hulls this is proving to be expensive.
Can tap water be used,if not why?
I have well water, would this be ok?
Is it me or does the walnut dye smell a bit fishy??!!!!
"Skidmores" has been mentioned a couple of times as a finish but what product in their range does it refer to?
Is there an alternative as it is elusive in the UK
Thanks
Django
-
I use the water out of my dehumidifier since it's plentiful with the humidity we have. Our tap and well water is very hard here "Kentucky Limestone" so I would not use it.
I gather the Walnut's in the fall and brew up enough to last me a year. Can you go gather the Walnuts without buying them. The green husks actually work better anyway.
It does have a certain smell but I wouldn't call it fishy. You sure your not using pond water ??? ;D Just kidding
-
Chuck recomends using distilled water with walnut dye but because of evaporation when "stewing" the walnut hulls this is proving to be expensive.
Can tap water be used,if not why?
I have well water, would this be ok?
Is it me or does the walnut dye smell a bit fishy??!!!!
"Skidmores" has been mentioned a couple of times as a finish but what product in their range does it refer to?
Is there an alternative as it is elusive in the UK
Thanks
Django
Django, I found the same thing when using distilled water, I switched to tap water, and it works just fine, so go ahead use it, I stopped using distilled water several years ago, all my natural dyes are made with tap water now.
tEN wOLVES :D
-
I use the water out of my dehumidifier since it's plentiful with the humidity we have. Our tap and well water is very hard here "Kentucky Limestone" so I would not use it.
I gather the Walnut's in the fall and brew up enough to last me a year. Can you go gather the Walnuts without buying them. The green husks actually work better anyway.
It does have a certain smell but I wouldn't call it fishy. You sure your not using pond water ??? ;D Just kidding
Your right Cliff, the green hulls work the best, I have a black walnut three that's my neighbors, it hangs over in my yard, so when the green hulls start falling off the tree, I gather them up and freeze them, then I will have a week that I'll do my natural dye cooking, and add the new to the old dye, this has been working well for me, and I prefer the natural dye over any of the others, that includes walnut, coffee, vinegaroon, and peacan. Cliff is also right about bad water, if you have really bad water, then another source might be better to use.
tEN wOLVES :D
-
Thanks guys, any thoughts on the Skidmores though?
Django
-
Howdy Django,
Sent you a PM regarding Skidmore's.
-
Can the rest of us get the info on Skidmore's? ;)
-
Here is a link to Skidmore's website.
http://www.skidmores.com/index.htm
The product used and talked about is Skidmore's Leather Cream. It is described on their website under the leather product section.
After dyeing a holster and applying 2-4 coats of Neet's Foot Oil, I finish the piece with 2-3 coats of Skidmore's Leather Cream. I let the Skidmores dry thoroughly between coats and then buff with a soft cloth or shoe brush.
This product is also very good for rejuvenating leather apparel such as motorcycle jackets, chaps etc. It also works well on furniture.
-
Thanks Johnny, i found a UK supplier.
Django
-
I give up. Cant get black walnut hulls :'(
-
Hey BHB,
Have you tried looking for English Walnut hulls? It is possible if you can get a european nut hull, you might be able to find it. In this day and age, the transportation of certain plant material can be difficult if not impossible, all very understandable. In my recollection, the english walnut has a similar hull to the black walnut and starts green switching to black. If there is a colour difference, I am guessing it would be subtle.
-
I made some English walnut dye and it works fine, but it is significantly lighter than I would have expected. It does make a good finish. Here's one done with English walnut hulls.
-
I think you got nice color Will, but there is a big difference in the two type walnuts for sure, and I think it also makes a difference in where they come from, I mean what part of the country, the most color I've gotten out of walnuts have been the black walnuts that fall off my neighbors black walnut three, when they still have their green hulls, the color is just stronger when the hulls are cooked when green, I make it a practice to pick the green hulls up off the ground as they fall and freeze them right away, so far this has kept me in walnut dye year after year, and all I do is cook up a fresh batch, and add it to the old, when the color starts to get weak I know it's time to add some fresh cook to it.
tEN wOLVES :D
-
Were can I bye the black hulls? Is there someone or some
store that sends them over the big sea?
-
Bob, I've seen where you could buy the dried husks (I think sometimes it's a powder) for making stain. Google basket making dyes or Home made Walnut dye. It's commonly used for baskets and many of the recipes you see are on basket making forums.
Whether or not they ship over there is the big question. I'd be glad to send some to somebody but I don't know if it's legal.
We have to be careful sending things around the globe. That's how we got the Ash Borer that is killing all of our Ash trees here, I've heard it came from Asia.
That is probably why they sell dry husks as a powder.
-
I just found this source for black walnut hulls. Currently $6.00 a pound.
http://www.herbco.com/c-147-black-walnut.aspx (http://www.herbco.com/c-147-black-walnut.aspx)
Here's their contact information:
Monterey Bay Spice Company
719 Swift St, Suite 62
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
800-500-6148
www.herbco.com
-
I just found this source for black walnut hulls. Currently $6.00 a pound.
http://www.herbco.com/c-147-black-walnut.aspx (http://www.herbco.com/c-147-black-walnut.aspx)
Here's their contact information:
Monterey Bay Spice Company
719 Swift St, Suite 62
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
800-500-6148
www.herbco.com
If using the powder how much should a person use to make a gallon of dye?
-
TwoWalks, I like to make about 14 to 16 quarts when I make my dye, that pound of crushed walnuts should make you two gal. easy. just cook it over three days to get the best result, and follow the methods. NOTE, I use a 22 qt. pot to cook mine in, with the lid on.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Tanx guys. My friend Dick have send me a bag of black walnut powder, will trye to
Make the dye ;D
-
TwoWalks, I like to make about 14 to 16 quarts when I make my dye, that pound of crushed walnuts should make you two gal. easy. just cook it over three days to get the best result, and follow the methods. NOTE, I use a 22 qt. pot to cook mine in, with the lid on.
tEN wOLVES ;D
Thank you Ten Wolves, will order a pound today.
-
"TwoWalks, you can use that pound of crushed walnuts over again, after your through, you can either freeze the walnuts, or hang them up to dry, I guess I should say to, if at all possible, use a womans nylons to put your nuts in, this way when done, you can just freeze your nuts or hang them up to dry. ::) and no comments from you Gun Slick Rick :-X
tEN wOLVES :D ;D
-
"TwoWalks, you can use that pound of crushed walnuts over again, after your through, you can either freeze the walnuts, or hang them up to dry, I guess I should say to, if at all possible, use a womans nylons to put your nuts in, this way when done, you can just freeze your nuts or hang them up to dry. ::) and no comments from you Gun Slick Rick :-X
tEN wOLVES :D ;D
Now that I have cleaned up the coffee I was drinking and gotten my composure back ... Thanks Ten Wolves. ;D
-
That's being a little hard on GCR isn't it 10W ;D ;D ;D :o ::)
Regards
-
and no comments from you Gun Slick Rick :-X
;D
-
I was looking at the how tos on old dyes. In making the coffee dye are you suppose to use iron shavins and or nails in conjunction with the coffe? When pouring it into a container do you filter the coffee grounds out or are they left in the mixture that the holster will be soaked in?
-
If you want a darker brown color, you can use a little iron, cook it along with your coffee, then when cool you can pour the whole works into a container, grounds and all, my coffee dye is a few years old now, and as good as new, the length of time you leave your leather piece in the coffee, will determine the depth of color.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Made a couple gallons of Coffee dye about 3 weeks ago and noticed today there is a strange scum forming on the top.
Should I ...
A. add a little alcohol
B. just skim it off
C. Leave well enough alone
-
I let it alone unless its real bad, then I add a little alcohol.
DM
-
When it gets bad enough, just scoop it off, I've never added alcohol to mine, it's all coffee and a little iron, because i like my coffee dark.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
10W, do you think adding iron to it after cooking would do anything to darken it?
I have always used mine right out of the tap so to speak, and would prefer some darkness.
DM
-
10W, do you think adding iron to it after cooking would do anything to darken it?
I have always used mine right out of the tap so to speak, and would prefer some darkness.
DM
Dalton, adding a little iron gave me a darker brown, which is what I was looking for, hers a sample of how it looks, you can vary the darkness with the amount of oil you use
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Ten Wolves what is your recipe for making your coffee dye?
-
Pappy I just pulled this up from FAQ/HOW TOO, YOU CAN FIND A WEALTH ON INFORMATION THERE, INCLUDING HOW TO MAKE OLD TIME DYES
Well, I use a one pound can of the DARK ROAST coffee, and about two heaping tablespoons of broken or crush iron, or you could use a dozen or so iron nails, I pour this into a 20 qt. pot filled 3/4 of the way up with water, bring to a boil, then reduce heat to a simmer, and simmer for about three or so hours, let cool over night, and then pour into a plastic container of your choice, but one deep enough to submerge your leather in. the dye my last rig was done in , I made a year ago, so it doesn't go to waste. when dying I leave my leather in the dye, submerged for 24 hours, then pull my leather out and rinse off with fresh water, if you're doing a belt place the belt on your bench straight or curved as you want it, when dried it will hold its shape pretty well, same with your holster, but you want to mold the holster to your gun at this time, let dry 24 hours, then condition with Lexoil conditioner, and after an hour , you can start oiling with either EVOO, or Neatsfoot oil, you will find you can vary the depth or darkness of the leather by the amount of coats of oil you apply, when you get it the way you want, let it dry over night, if it still looks the way you like it, you can either use Skidmores leather cream or use another sealer finish or nothing at all, that's open to you, or make it darker by applying more oil.
tEN wOLVES :D ;D
-
Can you cook in a cast iron dutch over for the iron? And how thick should it be after?
Coache
-
Can you cook in a cast iron dutch over for the iron? And how thick should it be after?
Coache
I don't know why you couldn't, I've not done it that way my self, but it should work, it doesn't
have to be thick at all, when I make my dyes , I use a 22 qt. pot with lid, I add water to about the 3/4 point on the pot, I find by just adding a few iron shavings it will darken my dye to my liking, if your cast iron pot is large enough, then it should work fine, if you only want a little, the size of the pot wouldn't matter, or you could just do again until you have enough.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Thanks Ten Wolves, I have made some in the past but when taken out of the coffee and dryed, the leather is very stiff is this normal? Even after oiling it, it still pretty stiff. Maybe it's the leather I was using it was form Tandy leather 7-8oz ?
Coache
-
Thanks Ten Wolves, I have made some in the past but when taken out of the coffee and dryed, the leather is very stiff is this normal? Even after oiling it, it still pretty stiff. Maybe it's the leather I was using it was form Tandy leather 7-8oz ?
Coache
Your not putting your leather in hot coffee are you ??, I hope not, but the leather will need to be conditioned after dying, I use LEXOIL, as my first treatment, this will soften the leather up again , the leather doesn't have to be dry to apply it either, damp is fine, this will put life back in it, after the LEXOIL, you can use your oil, but let the Lexoil have an hour or two to penetrate before doing it.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
I was going to ask something about coffee dying,the place i get my coffee is right around the corner and he roasts every morning at 5am,i was going to ask him what he does with the clean out stuff and wondered if it could be used for dying.He throws away cool burlap sacks and such too.Some of the ladies make purses from them.
-
No the coffee is cool. I looked in the old treads and Chuck Burrows used instant dark roast coffee, One jar of coffee to 3 jars of water and reduced to half. Have you tryed instant coffee as a dye? or is using grounds a better choice? also have you tryed mixing coffee dye with vinagaroon?
Sorry for all the questions.
Coache
-
No the coffee is cool. I looked in the old treads and Chuck Burrows used instant dark roast coffee, One jar of coffee to 3 jars of water and reduced to half. Have you tryed instant coffee as a dye? or is using grounds a better choice? also have you tryed mixing coffee dye with vinagaroon?
Sorry for all the questions.
Coache
Just yesterday I was wondering about mixing coffee dye with vinegaroon. I took a small bottle of coffee dye and added a small amount of vinegaroon. I left the test leather in the mix about 10 minutes. Today, being dry I compared it too a piece left 10 minutes in vinegaroon. The mix is definitely a different color. I would say it is a very dark grey with a slight brownish cast. I plan to repeat this experiment again, this time using a piece of coffee dyed leather and putting it into the mix for 5 minutes to see what I get.
-
Pards, as I mentioned before, you can achieve different shades and colors just by experimenting, there is no one way of doing any of this, so have fun, what I posted, is my method, you can use it, or feel free to do your own thing, just using different coffee will give a different color, and how strong you make or how weak you make, mixing with other natural dyes will also produce different colors, so have fun coming up with what YOU like best !!!
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Pards, as I mentioned before, you can achieve different shades and colors just by experimenting, there is no one way of doing any of this, so have fun, what I posted, is my method, you can use it, or feel free to do your own thing, just using different coffee will give a different color, and how strong you make or how weak you make, mixing with other natural dyes will also produce different colors, so have fun coming up with what YOU like best !!!
tEN wOLVES ;D
I am new to leather working Ten Wolves, but I agree totally. I have been having as much fun playing with different combinations of dyes and times as I am having making beautiful useable items that myself and my friends can enjoy. There must be a hidden chemist in me some place that is wanting to be released. ;D It has also given me a really great way to use a lot of this tooled scrap that I have been making.
-
I'm makeing a Scout cartridge belt and will try a coffee and vinegaroon dye. hope to have it done by the weekend will post after it's done. THis will be my first cartridge belt so I'm crossing my fingers that it will turn out.
Thanks again for all the help you all have given.
Coache
-
I'm makeing a Scout cartridge belt and will try a coffee and vinegaroon dye. hope to have it done by the weekend will post after it's done. THis will be my first cartridge belt so I'm crossing my fingers that it will turn out.
Thanks again for all the help you all have given.
Coache
Do a test sample of what you are going to use FIRST, BEFORE dyeing your leather, you want to be sure before you finalize. :-\ ??? ::) Even a small amount of Vinegaroon will dominate the color!!! ::)
tEN ;D
-
Do a test sample of what you are going to use FIRST, BEFORE dyeing your leather, you want to be sure before you finalize. :-\ ??? ::) Even a small amount of Vinegaroon will dominate the color!!! ::)
tEN ;D
Ten Wolves, I took a piece of the coffee dyed leather that was still wet and placed it into the coffee/vinegaroon mix from yesterday for 10 minutes, it came out a grey brown color that is really cool and looks very antique, very cool. Tomorrow I am going to put in another piece from the same coffee dyed piece but for only 5 minutes to see the difference. Got to love playing with these natural dyes. On a side note: have 3 pounds of the ground black walnut hull coming, so I will have another natural dye to play with.
-
TwoWalks, sounds like you're just having too much fun, these natural dyes can be a lot of fun to use, because you aren't ever stuck with just one color, I have found that even a short dip in Vinegaroon will give you instance color, the longer you leave it in the dye though the better the penetration and it will tend to go all through the leather, but the color will pretty much be the same, what you might want to try is using a sponge, and just dab your your leather here and there to give it a used rustic look,and then use your coffee dye over it, the trouble with mixing coffee and vinegaroon together is you will turn your coffee dye too black, and when dry and you do your conditioning and oiling, it might be too black for you, so try this on scrap first, just to be safe.
tEN ;D
-
Thanks Ten Wolves, I will try that sponge dabbing technique. sounds interesting. I have found you are right about the darkness with the vinegaroon on coffee, it does come out darker than I would like. I oil my samples with Evoo just too see how dark they get. I really look forward to the arrival of the walnut, this will probably be more in the color area that I like.
-
Just asking folks. When talk is of adding alcohol to retard bacterial growth, are we talking rubbing alcohol or drinking alcohol?
-
Just asking folks. When talk is of adding alcohol to retard bacterial growth, are we talking rubbing alcohol or drinking alcohol?
Rubbing Alcohol, I only use it in my Nut dyes, and it only works for a while, any scum that builds up can easily be scooped off, and your good to go.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
My bottle of coffee dye has a nice layer of mold on top. Should I skim it off and add some alcohol?
-
You can skim it off, sure, mine gets that way over time, mine is a few years old now, but still does its job, you can add a little alcohol if you want, it will slow that down, but I find over time it still comes back, it doesn't bother me though, I just clean it off and I'm good too go.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Thanks for the advice. A little mold never hurt nothin.
-
As I promised my belt and holster are done. I think they came out not to bad for my first. The belt is coffee & vineagroon combo,
1/4 cup of vinegaroon to 4 cups of reduced coffee sprayed on then wiped off after 5 minutes. Then after drying, two light coats of evoo then Tan Kote for the top coat. The holster is the same as the belt, but one coat of Eco Flo antique dark brown was added after the coffee & vinegaroon, then wiped the dark brown off with a wet paper towel right after applying it.
Thanks
Coache
-
Howdy COACHE
Well you did a great job on this rig, and I like your border tooling on the belt, one thing I would suggest is, when you cross over from on bullet loop to another, make sure you put a deep enough stitch grove in so the the thread lays under the surface of the leather, if not you will wear out your thread in no time, if you didn't do this, you can try to tap it down.
Your coffee dye is nice, and even though you added that much vinegaroon you didn't get much dark or black out of it, that much vinegaroon in my die would have turned the die much more black than what you got, but I like the color you achieved, and doing the antique on the holster gives this rig a nice contrast, well done pard, you can be very proud of what you have made. ::) :o 8) ;D
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Thanks Ten Wolves, It's great to hear you like it. I will take your advise about the sewing, That is one thing I forgot too do.
Thanks again for all the advice for you and all the others on this forum. It's great to have a place to go for advice from people with the same goals.
Coache
-
COACHE that rig turned out a beautiful color, dang you gotta love the natural dyes.
-
Ya I'm having fun with the colors . I have about 20 differant samples before ending up with this one.
-
Good job, Coache. That combination of coffee and vinegaroon makes a fine color. Nice work on that rig.
-
Ya I'm having fun with the colors . I have about 20 differant samples before ending up with this one.
And then there is the added fun from the next piece of leather taking the dye totally different. ;D
-
Coache that is one nice rig. Those colors came out real nice.
-
Coache I just want to offer you another compliment on your beautiful work. My goodness that's handsome. I have learned so much from the fine folks here, but my work is still in its' infancy. You have skills much more advanced than mine, and I hope to achieve your level of accomplishment at some time in the future.
I started some coffee dye last night, but dared to try some cheap instant coffee. Don't have any iron shavings, so used one clean steel wool pad like I use in my vinegaroon. Thought "what the heck", and poured in a couple shots of cider vinegar too. Stunk. Glad I do all this stuff outside for safety. Let it cool overnight, and will take out the steel wool and filter the mix through a coffee filter into plastic jug today. I'm eager to see just what the results are on a piece of scrap. Don
-
Thanks for the compliment Tallbald, I'm just getting started in leather too and having fun with it. I have not done a instant coffee dye yet hope to soon. When I did my Vinegaroon I put a lid on the jar and in a couple of hours it was leaking all over the place from the pressure. ( NOTE TO SELF ) DO NOT PUT A LID ON THE JAR UNTIL IT"S DONE FOAMING lol.
Hope to see some of your stuff soon.
Coache
-
Well Coache , my instant coffee dye seemed to have turned out OK. I soaked a piece of scrap in it for about an hour while I mowed last night, then rinsed it off in tap water. At first it had a grayish-brown cast to it, as has been mentioned. This morning it's dry and more distinctly light brown. I like the way the texture of the hide (from a spine section of a shoulder hide) really came out well defined. Part of the scrap wasn't submerged as long as the rest, and I can really tell a difference in color. Next time I'll go for several hours and see what results. As several have said, this natural dyeing is lots of fun. I'm wondering if I could get a maroon color from (don't laugh) pickled beet juice of if it would just fade on exposure to sunlight.... I know it sure stains a countertop and white t-shirts. Don
-
Well Coache , my instant coffee dye seemed to have turned out OK. I soaked a piece of scrap in it for about an hour while I mowed last night, then rinsed it off in tap water. At first it had a grayish-brown cast to it, as has been mentioned. This morning it's dry and more distinctly light brown. I like the way the texture of the hide (from a spine section of a shoulder hide) really came out well defined. Part of the scrap wasn't submerged as long as the rest, and I can really tell a difference in color. Next time I'll go for several hours and see what results. As several have said, this natural dyeing is lots of fun. I'm wondering if I could get a maroon color from (don't laugh) pickled beet juice of if it would just fade on exposure to sunlight.... I know it sure stains a countertop and white t-shirts. Don
Tallbald, here is a web site that shows a huge amount of natural dyes for cloth and a lot of these items might add color too leather as well. I figure it would take me about 20 years too try them all.
http://www.pioneerthinking.com/crafts/crafts-basics/naturaldyes.html (http://www.pioneerthinking.com/crafts/crafts-basics/naturaldyes.html)
-
Wow Twowalks! That's so neat! I shall research some of the food-based dyes. Never thought of grapes. Don
-
Wow Twowalks! That's so neat! I shall research some of the food-based dyes. Never thought of grapes. Don
Also remember to use the Ancient way of testing ... if it dyes your finger, it will dye leather. ;D
-
Two Walks thanks for the link. There are some interesting ways to make colors. It even brought back some memories. When I was a kid my grandmother would color easter eggs by boiling onion skins in water and then placing the eggs into the mix. I'm not sure if she also added anything else like vinegar to set the colors but the eggs always came out an interesting brownish orange color.
-
What about using Tea? Not so dark.
-
Sure you can use tea
-
Ten Wolves,
You mentioned Lesol as a conditioner after dying ...I have never bought any Lexol, but I have a big jar of Skidmores ... would that do as wel as the Lexol?
-
As too tea, look to the Chinese Brick Tea. It doesn't taste too bad, it looks interesting and can be used as artwork. Totally period correct and can make a really stout brew. Also if you are looking for a yellow dye, try Achiote. Also called annatto. It can be found in any store catering to latin american cuisine. It is also what makes cheese and butter/margarine the colour they are. Central Americans have been using it to dye with long before Columbus got the wanderlust.
-
Ten Wolves,
You mentioned Lesol as a conditioner after dying ...I have never bought any Lexol, but I have a big jar of Skidmores ... would that do as wel as the Lexol?
Wad, Skidmores is a last step for my leather, and is a great way to condition your leather and protect it also, I use Lexoil, as a first step after dyeing, it goes right into the leather to replace any loss of needed oils the leather has lost,it will soften your leather though, so be careful as to how much you use, and if you want the top of the bucket to remain stiffer and rolled out, then go lightly with the Lexoil there. hope this helps. Just to let you know, you can use Skidmores as the one and only finish if you like, or over and after oiling, or over most any other finish, you'll get great results either way.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Wad, Skidmores is a last step for my leather, and is a great way to condition your leather and protect it also, I use Lexoil, as a first step after dyeing, it goes right into the leather to replace any loss of needed oils the leather has lost,it will soften your leather though, so be careful as to how much you use, and if you want the top of the bucket to remain stiffer and rolled out, then go lightly with the Lexoil there. hope this helps. Just to let you know, you can use Skidmores as the one and only finish if you like, or over and after oiling, or over most any other finish, you'll get great results either way.
tEN wOLVES ;D
Ten Wolves, I notice there are different lexol products: One is PH a cleaner so I assume that is not what you are using. The other two are...
Lexol Leather Conditioner.
Lexol-nf Neatsfoot
Which of these two do you use?
Thanks TwoWalks
-
2W, the one I use is the Lexol Leather Conditioner.
-
2W, the one I use is the Lexol Leather Conditioner.
Thanks Will, that is the one I thought folks were recommending, but I get confused easily. ;D
-
Looks like Will answered you, I use the Lexoil conditioner, and also use the cleaner some times, a lot of times you can find the Lexoil Conditioner at hardware stores, you're not always limited to Tandy's, even Feed &Seed.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Looks like Will answered you, I use the Lexoil conditioner, and also use the cleaner some times, a lot of times you can find the Lexoil Conditioner at hardware stores, you're not always limited to Tandy's, even Feed &Seed.
tEN wOLVES ;D
Thanks Ten Wolves, We do have a large feed store so will check there.
-
The last Lexol I bought I got at Ace Hardware!
Ned
-
The last Lexol I bought I got at Ace Hardware!
Ned
Thanks Ned, guess I had better look around better. We have an Ace.
-
OK, I brewed up a gallon of really strong tea, let it cool, set in sun for 2 days, hardly any color on a scrap piece! Do I need to add IRON in tea also? I don't seem to have anything IRON around here! Even all the nails I have here are galvanized. Tell me what am I looking for that's IRON. Steel wool??? ???
-
If you can't find anything, and if you have a magnet, you can drag it in the dirt and collect iron.
look for rusty metal too, it usually is mostly iron, it only takes a little to darken the color, tea won't give as dark a color as coffee will, but that's your choice to make.
tEN wOLVES
-
I started my batch of vinegaroon about 3 weeks ago (small test piece looked great) and I recently dyed a shotgun belt. The leather appears a little grayish right now. Below are the steps I did on the belt. Let me know where I went wrong and what I need to do to get the belt a deeper black.
1. Soaked belt in vinegaroon for about 6 hours.
2. Took it out of the dye and let it dry about 18 hrs.
3. Soaked it in baking soda mixture for about 15 minutes to half hour. (bubbling seemed to stop)
4. Rinsed thoroughly with running water.
5. Layed belt flat to dry.
The belt has been drying now for about 20 hours now. I am not sure if the gray goes away with time or if the finishing applications(like evoo/neatsfoot oil, etc) will take the gray out. Your advice is appreciated. FYI...this is my first leather project.
-
The gray tinge should go away when you oil it.
That said, I always do the baking soda thing right after the leather comes out of the roon.
I pull the item from the roon,wash off good with clean water (garden hose), dip in baking soda/water solution for a few minutes and back to the garden hose for several minutes. shake off whatever water I can and let it dry for a few days.
glue,sew,oil,finish as needed. ;)
-
How I do it most times:
I use de-oiled 4/0 steel wool: dip in acetone, squeeze out the extra and hang to dry - then tear or cut into small pieces. Add one pads worth of the de-oiled steel wool to one quart of white or cider vinegar - I use those plastic coffee "cans" and punch a single small hole in the lid to let of any gas buildup. Let it set in the hot sun which will speed the reaction.
I let it set for about two weeks until there is only a light vinegar odor left and/or the bulk of the steel wool has been dissolved. I also keep a new batch "cooking" all the time so I have a constant supply.
For the deepest black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increase the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. (the tea can be added just before or just after the vinegar black)
Let set for about a half hour at most and then IMMEDIATELY rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply let set for a few moments only and then rinse off (letting the baking soda set too long can and will cause alkali burn and this can lead to destruction of the leather - NO MORE than a minute or two at most is necessary).
While still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite saddle oil. Once dry top coat as normal
Experiment - I test a piece of each new side without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken.
Instead of steel wool you can use chopped up bailing or fence wire - the smaller the better since it will dissolve in the vinegar bath faster.
-
Thanks for the advice. Will it hurt anything if I put it back in the vinagaroon for a while and start the dying process over?
-
It shouldn't hurt to put it back in but try to add a little evoo or neatsfoot to a small section first. It should blacken up to your liking.
-
Howdy..
Now I boiling some dye of black walnut Hull. I use the crushed variety and about 2.5 gallons of water .. we'll see how it has been about three days ..
Maby I have to reduce it some, its my first time on this..
//BhB
-
Boothill Bob,
I have a country road that was planted with English Walnut trees to provide shade form the intense sun down in the Delta..
And since no one harvests the shells (too small), I was thinking about harvesting some to get the husks from them to make some leather dye ...
My only question is; how many pounds/kilos of husk did you use to 2 1/2 gallons of water?
-
Wadd, I used 1 pound of the powdered stuff. But I dont know how it will come out yet :)
Do any of you dip the finiched cartridge belts or do you dip the parts and then put them together ???
-
Howdy Bob, good for you, once you get to know how this natural dye works, you will be very happy with it, on your question, you can dye your leather first or last, that's up to you, myself, I like the aged antique look, so I finish my work all except final finishing and burnishing and submerge my work in the dye, this will color/age your thread enough to make it look old and aged , the length of time I leave it in, depends on how strong my dye is, and also how a particular hide takes the dye, there are lots of variables here, which is what I like, you're not just stuck with one color or shade, you can create your own color and shade by testing before you dye your finished piece or leather you will be working with.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Thanx 10WF. I´ll try with a test peice first.. But if I have a lined belt and a lined speed holster with metal, can I still put it together and then submerge it?
Or maby just use the natural dye for the autentic rigs and oil dye for the modern ones. How would you do?
-
Bob...why can you not dye before assembly???
-
Outrider. I can do that, just a little lazy ;)
-
Bob, if you're not using steel for your insert, you can submerge, but if not I would dye my leather first, if it's aluminum, you're good to go, you just do not want any metal that can rust if you choose to submerge.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
I completely assemble the rig and then throw it in warm dye for a couple hours. Then hang in the sun to dry. As it is drying I will sometimes rub some residue from the husk on areas I want to darken for an aged look. After a couple days go at it with pure neatsfoot oil then bag kote.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/DSCN2392.jpg)
-
That rig is beautiful, Cliff. Your finish is outstanding. Very good work. 8)
-
Very nice Cliff, looks like you have the hang of it, well done on the rig also, it looks fantastic. ::) :o 8) ;D
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Hmmmm, this was NOT nice >:(
I have made me some Black walnut dye from the powder stuf. I had my holster in for 24h and it looks like
shit....... The color, what color??? is dirt brownish, not brown redish as some of the one I´ve seen here.
Maybe it will penetrates better if I warm the dye and lowers the holster???
Looks like I may be reduce it down a LOT :'(
-
Did you oil it yet? It kind of looks like mine when it is unoiled.
DM
-
Yea Dalton, i´ve oil it with EVOO, It was even pailer before :-X
-
Howdy..
Now I´ve oiled it five times with EVOO, it come out better... Is this what I have to do? Will have it
darker from the start, so I have to reduce the dye a little I think or warm it before I put the work in it..
-
Howdy..
Now I´ve oiled it five times with EVOO, it come out better... Is this what I have to do? Will have it
darker from the start, so I have to reduce the dye a little I think or warm it before I put the work in it..
Bob it all depends on how strong your dye is, I had it from strong to weaker, when it is weaker, I just left it in my dye longer, some times I left my work in the dye for up to seven days, the last batch I made is very strong, and I get great color after 15 to 20 min. of submergence, the more color you get from your dye, the less oil you will need to darken it to bring out the great color of these dyes.
After you have work with these natural dyes for a while you will learn how to use them for best results
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Thanx TW. My problem is that I cant get black hulls in Sweden, so I have to order the powder stuff
from US, and Its not for free :-\
-
Howdy Bob, I know what you are saying, but I also buy the powder Black walnuts too, and you have to remember each hide will take it differently, there are a lot of variables in this, but once to get the hang of it, it will be very rewarding, and your dye will last as long as you want it to, I have dye that is four years old now, that's not bad, so when you figure the cost of other dyes, it is still the cheapest way to go, and there isn't any rub off, the colors can be varied for tone and depth and are much easier to use, IMHO, so keep at it and you will master this process in time, it's worth it.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
That's the right color, if you want it to look more red hang it in the sun while it dries.
Also pure neatsfoot brings the color out, I never cared for the look with Evoo over walnut stain.
All of these were done with the same dye, it's how you let it dry and how you oil it after to get the look you want.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/081710_065bLR.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/knives%20and%20craft%20work/DSCN2943.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/knives%20and%20craft%20work/DSCN2951.jpg)
-
Bob, just a personal opinion, but I actually lke the color, much the same as Tandy Buckskin. Of course age and finish make a world of difference.
-
Thanx Drayton.
-
Bob, I just finished my first batch of walnut dye...it needs to be reduced a lot! Actually, I started with too much water to begin with. The instructions I read said start with water about one inch above the walnut shells...I started out with about five inches. What I came out with was even lighter than yours. I am making another batch which I will reduce by at least 75% and add that to my current batch. Hopefully, this will darken it quite a bit. It is all a learning experience, part of the fun of leatherwork.
-
Use the batch you have and cook it again or even better cook it over with new husk and will make it darker.
-
Already added the alcohol, shouldn't affect it though, should it?
-
Just finished re-processing my walnut dye, made another small batch and threw the first batch in once it reduced, added some coffee too, just for the helluvit, came out with a real nice medium brown. Reduced the whole batch by another 75% did the trick. Will have a holster on soon with the end result.
-
Eureka!!!
I started thinking about dyes ....
Lessee; something I can boil it in but has ceramic sides so that I get no greyish tinge from the metal sides of the container reacting with the dyes ....
So I want down to my local Salvation army and for less than $25. I bought three crockpots; one for each kind of dye so now I have vinagaroon and walnut dye at the ready, and will soon make up a crockpot of coffee dye.
BUT; if you decide that this makes sense, be sure to check out each heating element at the store; most thrift store do not warranty their stuff ....
-
A CROCKPOT, !!!!A brilliant idea, it can be stewed for days in the garage without the wife complaining!!!!!
Django
-
A CROCKPOT, !!!!A brilliant idea, it can be stewed for days in the garage without the wife complaining!!!!!
Django
LOL ;D ;D ;)
-
That sounds like an outstanding idea Wadd! You can also put it on a low boil and not worry about it. Funny thing is, with the walnut dye, my wife actually likes the smell, says it smells like she's baking pies! Of course once I put the coffee into the mix, the smell changed somewhat...
-
The nice thing about buying them that way is that they are (cheaply) dedicated crockpots, one for each dye ... and in the summer, just the crocks are put in the fridge with the dye ...
-
I had someone give some give my whole walnuts. They are soft and mold on them, Can I still make dye with them or just throw them out ???
Coache
-
I had someone give some give my whole walnuts. They are soft and mold on them, Can I still make dye with them or just throw them out ???
Coache
use them - they make a fine dye - I no longer use alcohol or anything else to keep my finished walnut or coffee dye from molding I just scrape the mold off the surface and use as is. One friend who has been using walnut dye for several decades just stirs the mold in and says it works even better as a dye.......
-
Ya know, that kinda makes sense. I gotta admit, though, it really depends on the leather more than anything. I dyed my wife's purse, Christmas present, came out kinda washed out brown. Did a gunbelt project from a piece of horsehide and it came out beautiful.
-
Thanks guys ;D
Hope you all have a Happy Holidays
Coache
-
Just finished a batch of coffee dye. Just over a gallon of very, very strong coffee reduced to about ten ounces. Comes out a nice medium/dark brown, depending on the leather. The walnut dye started to develop a light film of mold, even though I added alcohol and a bit of vinegar. That's okay, I'll just skim the mold and keep on using it. Going to start another batch of coffee. Wife saw Wadd's post about the thrift store crock pots and said "Go for it!" Seems she didn't mind the walnut cooking, but the coffee was a bit too much, LOL.
-
Two neat things about crock pots
1.) A fella can plug them in almost anywhere and let them cook.
2.) Referring to #1, the dyes can cook in the garage, out of the range of the senora of the casa's olfactory senses.
Then, checking them once or twice a day, they can simply be turned off when they are the right consistency.
Finally, I store the crock pots in the garage with the dyes inside them ready to go, again out of the olfactory's of anyone who might find the smell offensive.
Hell, if your garage is like mine it might just IMPROVE the aroma ... *S*
-
Okay, I cheated! I took a 2.5 ounce jar of instant coffee, added 12 ounces of hot water and, wow, a nice medium brown. Then on a whim, I took a pack of Black Cherry Kool Aid and mixed it into the concoction and came out with a rather odd reddish brown. Tried it on a piece of scrap leather just to see what happens as time goes on.
Instant coffee? Well, why spend all day boiling down regular coffee when you can just mix up some hyper-strong instant? LOL
-
Okay, maybe the Kool Aid wasn't such a great idea. I believe the citric acid is extremely astringent, the leather dried out badly. Perhaps I should have used a lot of EVOO before trying to bend the leather. As it is, it cracked badly upon bending.
-
You DID say it was a piece of scrap leather, right?
I hope so!
-
Oh, yes indeed! Learned my lesson a looooong time ago about trying new things on an ongoing project. Going to play around with this concoction some, see if I can get it to work.
-
Here's my first rig using homemade walnut dye, the billets on the belt were dyed with coffee dye...
-
Very nice, your rig looks good, once you have used natural dyes, you will find just how easy it is to vary your colors and tones, well done pard, and thanks for sharing.
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Thanks TW, I forgot to mention the belt is made from horsehide. Had a couple of 'horse butts' that I got for very little. The thickness varies quite a bit, but it works pretty well.
-
I've been reading up on this process, and came across some suggestions that it might be preferable to use actual iron for the mix. I'm not sure whether the idea is that the results on leather are better with iron, or whether the mix is easier to prepare. Anyone know? Either way, I wondered whether anyone had tried iron fillings, it's easy enough to get, though one does need to take care that it is actually pure iron and not merely a powdered steel. Has anyone used Iron fillings for the base? Does anyone know how much to mix. Even a formula for some other form of iron would be a start.
-
I've been using vinegar black now for over 40 years and have used real wrought iron, mild steel, steel wool, hi carbon scrap from my knifemakining, etc. to make it with and frankly I've never found a spits worth of difference in the final product when used on leather (when made with rusty iron and used on maple you do get better red tones - but it makes no real difference on leather so why mess with rusty stuff when you don't have to). In my experience far more problems are caused by low tannin content in the leather or other problems with the leather itself.
Yep I have heard all the talk that you must use only pure iron, or rusty iron, or that alloyed steel will cause problems, etc. and I have never encountered any of the problems - most of the time such comments are made by those who have either never used it or make assumptions without any real experience with it.
Most of the time these days I just use steel wool since I always have it on hand either new or used and it makes good black even if I don't degrease it.
This is one of the easiest stains to make and use for leather and yet it seems that folks when introduced to it almost always seem to want to improve it ??? ??? ??? and no I'm not pointing a finger at anyone person here or elsewhere this subject has been discussed.
Anyway FWIW that's my dos centavos.....
as for how much to use....
Vinegar lack aka vinegaroon
The original recipe:
VINEGAR BLACK
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner (note: some folks get the turnings from brake drums) and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
How I do it most times:
Use iron/mild steel shavings/scraps or de-oiled 4/0 steel wool: to de-oil dip in acetone, squeeze out the extra and hang to dry - then tear or cut into small pieces. Add one pads worth of the de-oiled steel wool to one quart of white or cider vinegar to start with - I use those plastic coffee "cans" and punch a single small hole in the lid to let of any gas buildup. Let it set in the hot sun whenever possibe which will speed the reaction. I let it set for at least two weeks or until there is only a hint of a vinegar odor left and/or the bulk of the steel wool has been dissolved. Whenever all of the iron/steel is dissolved and there is still a strong odor of vinegar (the odor comes from the acetic acid) I either add more iron/steel or leave off the lid - acetic acid is highly volatile and tends to gas off quite quickly. After it's all cooked up I decant the liquid - any fines I use to "mother" the next batch. I also keep a new batch "cooking" all the time so I have a constant supply.
For the deepest black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increase the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. Let set for about a half hour and then rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply let set for a few minutes and then rinse off. While still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite saddle oil. Once dry top coat as normal
Experiment - I test a piece of each new side without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken.
Instead of steel wool you can use chopped up bailing or fence wire - the smaller the better since it will dissolve in the vinegar bath faster.
-
I am a chemist and any of those should work. I have made it with steel wool, but the best and easiest batch I ever made was when I got some Iron Acetate, added it to some vinegar and I was done. All you are doing with the long soak in vinegar is making iron acetate from the iron in whatever you drop in. Steels may take a smidge longer than straight iron, but it will all work.
-
Hi,
I bought a gallon of Vinegar (Rite Aid had it in 1 gallon plastic jugs) .... and I added about 4-5 ounces of iron shavings (given to me by a fellow member, but I would think any plumber that does black iron pipe threading would LOVE to get rid of their shavings [but, being liberally laced with oil, I believe an acetone wash would be necessary]).
I did not heat up the vinagaroon ... 'twould be an easy task as they are stored in the ceramic crock pots that I have bought. But it takes about a month to get the vinegar smell out ... (perhaps i should have cooked them after all).
I did some 3-4 ounce leather while showing off leather working as a '49er leather worker during Gold Rush Days in Old Sacramento .... and it turned the leather in a minute or so .... almost seemed like magic (and made me look very good ... ).
Recently I have made a belt and sheath cover for a Confederate persona that I have (that of my great grandfather), and it has worked extremely well. I used Skidmore's to soften the leather up afterwards (applied to the outside only; gonna line the belt with suede). The sheath for the Confederate D Handled Bowie was horsehide originally and I was told it dyed poorly. So I removed the sheath cover from its wooden sheath, used the horsehide as a template and relined it with vinagaroon-dyed 8-10 oz leather. I put it on wet and let it shrink against the wooden sheath ...
I am currently waiting on David Carrico to get well enough to make me a holster Then I will redye the already black holster with Vinagaroon and while wet hope to vacuum press the leather around the pistol ... my goal is to make the entire rig looked 'lived in' ... and I will add pictures when I am done ...
-
I just add a pound of "common nails" to a gallon jug and let 'er sit - jostle it a little every once in a while to stir it up and the nails seem to work fine.
NOW I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS! Hopefully you can help me out. :)
My vinegaroon works great and gives me a nice black finish. I've been following what was suggested - neutralizing with bakin soda solution, etc.
Questions -
1. I cut my item out - do whateve tooling, etc. and then I've been wiping the vinegaroon on with a swab - going in different directions with each coat until I get the deep black I want. Then I neutralize with the baking soda solution. I haven't been using any oil on the leather though when it is still damp and as a result, it seems to really dry the leather out. I've been dying holsters while they are still in the "flat" and then sew them up afterwards. After assembly, I usually use virgin olive oil on it after I've wet molded it to the pistol. I think I've already answered some of my question by needing to use some oil on it while it is still damp from the dyeing process. It may be a stupid question but are you dyeing while your leather is in the flat or after the holster is assembled? Are you soaking in the solution or are you applying it with a swab - is one way better than the other?
2. As I've said, I'm happy with the results and the depth of black I'm getting but even after a period of time, I'm getting the "vinegar smell". I've neutralized and then rinsed well in clean water and have left outside to "air" even. I have a holster I made a year ago and I can still pick up the vinegar odor. The leather on it seems to be fine - I used olive oil on it, etc. Is there a trick to getting rid of the "vinegar smell"? Am I not soaking it in the baking soda solution long enough?
I'm a figurin' that after having used it for 40 years (the vinegaroon), that you probably have it down to a science and know all the tricks of the trade! Thanks much for any help / advice you can give - it's greatly appreciated! :)
-
Hi,
I am just a tyro at this, but I just got done Vinagarooning (is that a word? *S*) a pistol belt and confederate D-guard Bowie sheath.
Instead of the soda wash, I simply skipped it and slathered Skidmores on the outside (I plan to glue a suede liner on the backside and didn't want the glue not to work on the Vinagarooned surface ...).
Once I get my black/flapped/Confederate holster from David Carrico, I plan to give it a 'lip service' vinagarooon coating with an old sponge to get it to match the belt and sheath ...
Then all I have to do is save up to get that Larry Romano Maynard ... LOL
-
About three weeks ago I put one full 0000 steel wool pad in a quart of white vinegar. Not one bit of the steel wool has disolved and the vinegar is still perfectly clear. I dipped a piece of scrap leather into it a couple of days ago and it did turn somewhat black (more like dark gray).
I'm ready to dump it all and start over.
Anyone have any suggestions why my brew flopped?
DD
-
About three weeks ago I put one full 0000 steel wool pad in a quart of white vinegar. Not one bit of the steel wool has disolved and the vinegar is still perfectly clear. I dipped a piece of scrap leather into it a couple of days ago and it did turn somewhat black (more like dark gray).
I'm ready to dump it all and start over.
Anyone have any suggestions why my brew flopped?
DD
Are you sure you didn't use stainless steel wool.
I've had a gallon eat up four or five steel wool pads before filling it's appetite.
-
OH yeah, also torch the steel wool pads to get any oil off of them, could that have been the problem?
-
I'm sure it isn't SS wool.
I didn't torch it but I'll try that on the next batch
DD
-
OH yeah, also torch the steel wool pads to get any oil off of them, could that have been the problem?
Thanks for the suggestion Cliff. Apparently that WAS the problem. I dumped my last batch, took another steel wool pad out of the same package and torched it, put it in a jar of new viinegar and within 5 or 6 days most all of the steel wool was gone. I strained out the sediment this afternoon and tried it out on a new gunbelt. After I ran it through the vinegaroon I dipped it in a solution of baking soda and water. My belt turned a beautiful black color and I don't have to worry about black dye rubbing off anymore.
Now my question is, how do I get rid of the vinegar smell? My wife said when I wear that belt I'd smell like a giant pickle! ???
DD
-
Ok I just need to clarify for me that I understand the 3 dye that have been discussed here
Vinegeroon - 1 steel wool pad to a gallon of vinegar let soak for 5 or 6 days till dissolved, then was a baking soda solution after you dye your leather to neutralize vinegar, for a black stain. Yes - No
Walnut - Boil a pound of green walnut husk to about a gallon of water to a thick mix, without iron for a nice walnut dye or with iron for a greyish walnut dye . Yes - No
Coffee - Boil a pound of coffee to about 2 1/2 to 3 gallons of water for a nice chocolate brown. Yes - No
Yes I know the color will also depend on how long I soak the leather in the dye, so do I have the basics down for these 3 dyes
-
Sounds like you have it. For a quart of vinegar, I use one of those large steel wool pads, not the small ones. I get a very deep, rich black with those proportions. I'm not an authority on the walnut or coffee dyes so I'll let the others here reply on them.
-
In reference to the Black Walnut stain would it work to heat up a light type of oil and add powdered or pieces of ripened walnut husks and simmer for a while then strain thru cheese cloth to get a type of dye for dark brown to black.
-
I started a batch of vinegeroon about two weeks ago. I aquired some steel dust from an auto parts store. It is from turning brakes. I'm using a gallon of vinegar, with the dust.
After two weeks, I'm still getting a nice froth in the bucket. How do I know when it's done? I presumed that when it is done, it would stop frothing.
It does a nice job blackening test pieces, but I want to make sure I do this right.
Thanks, Sgt. C.J. Sabre
-
Finally got around to making some vinagaroon, five old steel wool pads in a gallon of white distilled vinegar and waited two weeks. Tried it out on a wristband, neutralized in a baking soda slurry, came out great. Got a project that requires black pieces that are assured not to bleed, here's hoping! Will post pics when complete, if lucky!
-
0? or 0000???? :)
-
0? or 0000???? :)
0000, dissolved fast! The stuff was at least 10 years old and couldn't use it for anything else, would just come apart.
-
I posted on the other thread too. Just use steel wool, it works just fine. Burn off any oil that may be on it with a lighter or torch.
-
Chuck,
I have a question that I think you have answered before, but I can't seem to find it.
I have been given a large hunk of 9-10 oz leather ... the person that gave it to me was not the original person who got it , but he believes it is Chrome Tanned and says that I can use it but he is not sure that it will dye very well ...
What do you think? If there is a problem, is there something to help the dye out?
-
Chrome tanned is not one process or chemical but many. With dyes and glues a sample is always best.
I got some help with this fall's batch of dye as I left the nuts on a boat in my driveway. After a while, they were discovered by squirrels who hulled the lot which I rebagged. I have since reduced them to a thick juice just as a result of their sitting around. Pretty simple.
The 1850 saw the emergence of industrial dyes with the discovery of Mauveine. Many discoveries and a few fortunes were made as a result. So I wonder to what extent makers in the western period were limited to natural dyes. Of course certain artificial dyes, of which vinigaroon could be one, date back millennia.
-
Massive,
I was wondering if I 'vigorously wiped' the finished section of the leather with rubbing alcohol acetone, or ammonia, if I could 'preset' the leather up for dyeing with a vinagaroon ....
Has anyone tried this?
TTFN
-
Burn a piece of it and if the ashes are green it's probably chrome tan.
-
Cliff,
Thanks; I'll try it!
TTFN,
-
I tried some V on some chrome I have around and it did not darken it, whereas, the instant it touches veg the veg goes black.
This is what I would do, take some water, wet a scrap thoroughly, then shake it off. If the surface seems damp at all then I think you can:
1)Take another scrap, dampen in tea, very strong tea. There are other things that do tanic acid even more strongly. But tea is a nice household thing.
2) Let one piece dry, and try the V on that, and try the V on the wet piece before it dries. Veg goes black because it has the tanic acid left over from the bark tan, or similar process. But you can dye something like cotton that does not, simply by first putting some tea on it. Now the problem with chrome is it does not wet out that well, but I think you can get past that.
Another option is to use black dye. Dean of all things holster, Will Ghormley, has a section on his site about dyeing with ecoflow.
http://www.willghormley-maker.com/OldDogsAndNewTricks.html
-
I tried the wet version. The result was basically not much change. The roughest section greyed, but mostly it was unchanged. I have a piece that needs drying out, and I will try that. There may be less dilution by the water in the tea, if I let it dry first. The tea may not be strong enough. Health food stores sell tannic acid powder, and it can be used in a 5% solution for dying. Apparently it is not really an acid, so it may not be harsh on the leather. Not that it takes nasty amounts for dying anyway since the amounts present in wood naturally are enough for a deep black to develop.
-
Here's some instructions for some of the old time dyes I'm working with these days:
1) Black: VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon - these are original old formulas)
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
Another method is to cover iron scraps with sour beer, and allow them to stand for a month or more; then strain off the beer and bottle as before.
A third method is to boil sulphate of iron in vinegar; mix some brewer's yeast with beer and allow it to stand for twenty four hours, then skim off the yeast and add the vinegar.
Instead of iron shavings you can use steel wool. To use the steel wool burn off the oil first - I dip it in acetone and use a propane/blow torch and light it off in an old pan with a lid, just in case you need to put the flame out. Take all precautions and it will work fine. The only problem with steel wool is it often has copper and other metals in the "mix" which can sometimes add a greenish tint.
After the "dye" (actually it's a reagent) dries I then neutralize with a slurry of baking soda and room temp water, about a 1/2 cup baking soda to a quart of water. Then I let the leather dry until just damp and apply a light coat or two of oil (I generally use olive oil, Lexol, Conditioner, or Lexol non-greasy Neats Foot). When the "dye" first dries it may look bluish or grayish at first and sometimes a second coat is needed, but normally the neutralizing and oil will turn it black.
2) Brown: I use black walnut hulls (If they are not available locally - the fresh green hulls are best - you can buy them dried on line from various vendors - to find a vendor search for walnut dye, etc.) Put a pound or so of the crushed hulls in an old stocking and place in a pan of distilled water so that the water covers the walnut hulls about an inch. Cover it and simmer at a low boil for several hours and then let cool overnight - keep an eye on the water level. The next day boil again and let cool overnight. Again watch that the water level does not get too low, but you do want it to get fairly thick. Once it's cool drain off the liquid be sure to squeeze all of the liquid out of the bundled walnut hulls. Save the walnut hulls - hang them up to dry and you can use them a couple of times more. The liquid will go bad so either keep it frozen or add 3/4 of a cup of rubbing alcohol to a quart of the dye. This is the dye I used on the Slim Jim in the DVD. It will come out anywhere from a light brown/gray to a dark grayish brown before oiling (I use light olive oil a lot for oiling and then set it in the sun to darken) - the color will depend on the leather - every piece is different, how long you let it soak, and how strong the dye is.
I always do a test on a scrap of every new hide, I use only American tanned hides - mostly from Wickett & Craig. You can also mix the two dyes, which gave me a rusty/black on the pieces shown below. I used a 60/40 mix of walnut to vinegaroon on the belt and a 75/25 on the holster:
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/1-gallery2/shaikh-belt-2-2.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/1-gallery2/holster-zambiasi-tx-jstrap.jpg)
And finally you can also use a thin wash of regular spirit dyes over any of the above to "adjust" the color..............
Great in-depth instructions.
I was actually wondering about using other products such as blackberries/blueberries/yellow onions/etc... basically any organic plant based product for natural leather dyes. I would like to know how to brew them up to extract the colors, and how to store them without the use of alcohol or any other chemical. I have read that you can freeze them, but I would prefer a method where that wasn't necessary, as the added time of unthawing the dyes on top of the time that it takes to make them would be a little TOO time consuming.
Thanks!
Zayne
-
Hi,
Lets say you are making a belt and using natural dye such as walnut, coffee, etc. Do you bevel the edges, skive and punch holes first, so that those areas will be colored also? I'm asking because I have dyed strips of leather and then beveled and the edge is much lighter that the outer parts of the leather.
-
Yes, I completely finish the entire project and then dip it. Catch the moisture right and reburnish the edges as it is drying.
-
Yes, I completely finish the entire project and then dip it. Catch the moisture right and reburnish the edges as it is drying.
I usually leave the straps in the natural dye for 24 hours or more, for a deep rich color. Would this make a difference?
-
Yes, I completely finish the entire project and then dip it...
Neophyte question: after stitching? ???
-
Hey Kid, here is a pair of Slim Jims stained with walnut hull dye. They were completely finished and sewn before they were stained. The stain doesn't seem to affect the waxed thread.
Lucky
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l361/decapper/PICT0367_zps3zmhz43j.jpg) (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/decapper/media/PICT0367_zps3zmhz43j.jpg.html)
-
Neophyte question: after stitching? ???
Yes, after stitching. Only thing I do after staining is reburnish edges.
-
I would definitely NOT use chrome-tanned leather on a holster! Although you may be able to seal the leather, especially the inside, you run the risk of the chemicals in the dye attacking the finish and the steel of the gun! Veg-tanned ONLY!
-
Here's some instructions for some of the old time dyes I'm working with these days:
1) Black: VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon -
After the "dye" (actually it's a reagent) dries I then neutralize with a slurry of baking soda and room temp water, about a 1/2 cup baking soda to a quart of water. Then I let the leather dry until just damp and apply a light coat or two of oil (I generally use olive oil, Lexol, Conditioner, or Lexol non-greasy Neats Foot). When the "dye" first dries it may look bluish or grayish at first and sometimes a second coat is needed, but normally the neutralizing and oil will turn it black.
Hi
Nolan says neutralize with a slurry of baking soda etc. I've just put the leather in a Jar of Baking Soda and water right after removing from the Vinegaroon, and also just rinsed the leather in tap water. Neither way seems leave any damage to the leather. Is dunking the leather a viable option? I would ASSUME that you then rinse the slurry off...
Later
-
I dunk mine in the vinegaroon then again in the baking soda solution after it's nice and black. That said, I'm sure wiping the stuff on is just as effective.
-
A slow dunk is fine, but no longer, baking soda will neutralize the dye, but it will also burn your leather if your leather is left too long in it, rinsing with fresh water after the baking soda dunk is the best way to ensure your leather is not harmed...
tEN wOLVES ;D
-
Yeah I don't leave the baking soda on hardly any time and get it rinsed.
-
My usual procedure is to:
Leave the Holster or Belt in the Vineragoon for approx. 5-10 minutes
Quick rinse with water
Slosh around in a Baking Soda Slurry for approx. 3-5 minutes
Rinse thoroughly with water
let dry thoroughly then apply 2-3 coats of "pure" Neets Foot Oil followed by 2 coats of Skidmores
I can't really say that this is the perfect or exact method to use. I just got in the habit of doing this way and have had no problems.
-
Thanks, brewing a batch and I'm pretty sure its done. 1 half gallon of white wine vinegar with 4 0000 steel wool in there. The last two aren't dissolving any more.
Later
-
It sounds like your batch is about done. I generally do mine with one of those large 0000 pads in a quart of white vinegar. The last little bit takes a while so it's probably close to the right amount. I generally clean the oils off the steel wool with a shot of carburetor cleaner first. I used to burn the oils off first but either way works fine.
John's method is a good one. I usually dunk the project in the baking soda solution until it stops bubbling, maybe a minute, and figure all the vinegar is neutralized. Then I rinse well.
-
It sounds like your batch is about done. I generally do mine with one of those large 0000 pads in a quart of white vinegar. The last little bit takes a while so it's probably close to the right amount. I generally clean the oils off the steel wool with a shot of carburetor cleaner first. I used to burn the oils off first but either way works fine.
John's method is a good one. I usually dunk the project in the baking soda solution until it stops bubbling, maybe a minute, and figure all the vinegar is neutralized. Then I rinse well.
Thanks
I washed the steel wool in alcohol.
Later
-
Thanks
I washed the steel wool in alcohol.
Later
That should be more than sufficient. I think one could just toss it in without doing anything and it would work. It might take a little longer to dissolve, though.
-
Hi, i tried a small piece of leather yesterday. I didn't have baking soda, so I rinsed it and went to buy the baking soda. The leather bubbled quite a while in the baking soda mix. I rinsed the leather and its drying.
I found it interesting that the Vinegaroon was pretty clear until after it had leather in it, now its black.
Later
-
Hi, i tried a small piece of leather yesterday. I didn't have baking soda, so I rinsed it and went to buy the baking soda. The leather bubbled quite a while in the baking soda mix. I rinsed the leather and its drying.
I found it interesting that the Vinegaroon was pretty clear until after it had leather in it, now its black.
Later
I like the nice, rich black vinegaroon produces. No dye that I've found can match that.
-
Question on Vinegaroon,
Can pieces be glued and sewn after using vinegaroon or should assembly be done beforehand?
Do you wait till the leather dries before soaking in Baking soda?
Thanks.
Doug
-
Once it's black, the vinegaroon has done its work. I neutralize it with baking soda right away. Remember to condition the leather afterwards with EVOO, Lexol or something else to replace the oils that get leeched out.
As to treating with vinegaroon before or after assembly, I've done it both ways. After the leather has dried, you can glue it, sew it, mold it or otherwise treat it as before. After all, it's then just black leather.
Looking forward to seeing what you make with it. 8)
-
A good topic got started here about making a Pale Rider rig so I split those posts off into a new thread just for that. It can be found here. (https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=64901.0)
-
My roon sitting in the jar is muddy brown, is that normal? Seems to me the last time I made it it was more of a grayish color.
I made it with white vinegar and steel wool this time. The last time it was cider vinegar but I could not get the smell out of the leather, I used steel wool then also until the wool wouldn’t melt anymore. The smell in the leather was terrible.
-
I always make mine with white vinegar and, yes, it's murky. That's no big deal. As to the smell, mine don't smell but I've never used cider vinegar. It may also have to do with the leather itself. Some tanning processes can smell odd anyway then to add vinegar, uff-da!
-
UFF-DA ??? Where you from? :o Mom was Iowa raised ...Norwegian/Danish...used to hear that ALL the time.
-
UFF-DA ??? Where you from? :o Mom was Iowa raised ...Norwegian/Danish...used to hear that ALL the time.
My father was Danish. My wife is Swedish born in Finland. I hear it all the time, too.
-
Hi
I made up a batch of Pecan Dye using the dried husks that Mason's Pecans in Goldsby OK sells for mulch. I'll leave the leather in the dye for about 12 hours based on my experiment. I put Neetsfoot oil on the Left side of the sample and Extra Virgin Olive Oil on the Right side. I'll try and get a picture in the sun and see if that looks better.
6.1 Sample 1
Sample 1 was in the dye for 4 hours after a half hour bath in black tea.
6.2 Sample 2
This sample was in the dye for 6 hours after a half hour bath in black tea.
6.3 Sample 3
This sample was in the dye for 8 hours after a half hour bath in black tea.
6.4 Sample 4
This sample was in the dye for 10 hours after a half hour bath in black tea.
6.5 Sample 5
This sample was in the dye for 12 hours after a half hour bath in black tea.
6.6 Sample 6
This sample was in the dye for 14 hours after a half hour bath in black tea.
Later
-
I’ve been using vinagroon for MANY years since I read a post by Chuck on this site.
I switched to white vinegar a ways back as the smell was much less.
I typically mix up about a half a box of baking soda in a couple quarts of warm water until the water is clear. When the leather is as black as possible (usually only a couple minutes after I paint a liberal coat on with a foam brush), I submerge the peice in the baking soda mix until the bubbles stop coming out. Then I rinse under warm water, roll the piece in a towel to get excess water out and, as it drys a bit, mold into shape.
When dry, I oil a few times lightly and sew up.
By painting on the vinagroon versus submerging, I feel like the submerge in the baking soda mixture goes deeper into the leather to better neutralize the “surface” vinagroon.
...but I’ve been wrong before.
-
If dyeing both sides of the leather, does the vinegaroon go all the way through the leather or just on the surface?
Doug
-
It depends on how much you put on. If the vinegaroon soaks in to the center, the leather is black to the center. Remember, you're not painting on pigment. The stuff causes a chemical change in the leather to get it black.
-
In my experience, it penetrates but not all the way thru when painted on.
It is probably a factor of the amount applied and soak time.
-
Thanks Will. I questioned because of Flich’s comment (below)
“By painting on the vinagroon versus submerging, I feel like the submerge in the baking soda mixture goes deeper into the leather to better neutralize the “surface” vinagroon.“
Doug
=========
Thanks Flinch
-
Hi
The thickest thing I've done in Vinegaroon is a belt and it's black all the way through in 10 minutes. Keep the baking soda fresh, apparently there's more acid in the roon than there is base in the Baking Soda.
Later
Merry Xmas
-
Thanks.
Merry Christmas
-
The roon I made has a "hard" black crust on the top. I have scooped it off with a stainless steel spoon, but it has come back. I scooped some off on the upper right corner.
What should I do with this?
I have dipped samples in the solution and have gotten chips of this crust on the leather that I have to rub off.
-
run it through some cheese cloth
-
Thanks Cliff,
I was wondering if this is normal. If so, I guess I will have to filter it before each use.
-
I don't know if it's considered normal but I have had vinegaroon do weird things before and get crustys in it. It's been a couple or three years since I used any since I generally used black skirting leather for black projects. Since my last batch got old I haven't done another one.
-
Yeah, mine gets crusty, too. Stuff floats on the top. I just scoop it off with a stainless tea strainer. Crap settles to the bottom, too. It doesn't hurt the way it works.
-
Ok...thanks guys...appreciate the input.
-
Hi,
Here in Oklahoma, Home Depot sells t-shirt rags, they're good for many things including putting in a funnel and filtering your roon, then you can toss the rag.
Happy New Year, I sure hope 2021 is better. "Couldn't be any worse." could be famous last words....
Mike
-
Don't say, "Couldn't be any worse". I think some folks take it as a challenge!
-
Vinegaroon FINISHED!
OK ... got my new gun belt (aka Pale Rider style) roon'd finished and delivered. Customer loved it and was very grateful. matched his holster. Added top flaps over cylinder to keep conversion cylinder tops from falling off.
-
Hi
The thickest thing I've done in Vinegaroon is a belt and it's black all the way through in 10 minutes. Keep the baking soda fresh, apparently there's more acid in the roon than there is base in the Baking Soda.
Later
Merry Xmas
Hi again, in order to keep the tooling crisp, I've started leaving the belts etc in the Vinegaroon for 6 minutes instead of 10. 4 minutes in black tea, 6 minutes in the roon, and 6 minutes in the baking soda bath. Letting the belts dry fully before soaking them in the roon helps also. Cutting the belt off did show that the roon only penetrated a little way into the belt. It was a much stiffer belt though, AND I burnished it pretty well before I tooled it. Those two things may have made a difference.
Later