Savage 1861 Navy

[SimmerinLightning]

I have seen pictures of this gun in various books but never paid it much attention. Today I stumbled across this video:

and after seeing how it works, I want one. I want two. Somebody call Uberti and persuade them to make a run.

It's kinda steampunky looking, too.

[St. George]

Uberti's had decades to do this.

They haven't bothered.

They're not likely to now or ever.

Look for an original - you'll find one far faster.

Scouts Out!

[Blackpowder Burn]

Now those are cool.  I've never seen one before.

Sorta like the Merwin Hulbert of cap'n ball - superior design that never quite made it.

[Advertising]

[St. George]

I'd never call the Merwin, Hulbert a 'superior' design.

It was merely an interesting design in an era full of interesting designs.

The Savage Navy falls into the same category - pre-Civil War, it was yet another manufacturer's attempt at producing something that was both usable and saleable - yet would also catch the Government's eye as well.

Pre-war, it may have done all right, but once the War actually began, it was out-stripped by the 'real' competition of Colt and Remington, who produced reliable revolvers that were universally accepted on both sides.

It just couldn't compete - not with its slow, bulky movement, boxy feel and overall heaviness.

Those issued the piece soon found ways to get themselves something better.

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

Lt. Fred. Beecher apparently carried a Savage Navy pistol during the CW.  While the gun itself is unknown, a holster and belt, authenticated by his nephews has survived. (They apparently sold the gun back in 1942!) The holster, itself fits a Savage Navy quite nicely. Any other CW gun fits with room to space for a pocket pistol! The impression in the leather match the Savage pistol exactly! The holster, itself, is a full-flap, butt-forward military style with plugged end. Beecher served with Co, B,  16th Maine Volunteer Inf., having enlisted from Boudoin College. He was badly wounded at Fredricksburg, and had just barely recovered from a leg wound, when the 16th fought at Gettysburg. While attacking across a field he took shrapnel from an exploding cannon ball, hitting him in the same leg! According to letters he wrote, he thought he had been hit in the back (obviously referred pain from the siatic nerve that runs down the leg)! That put him out of the War. After the war, he was commissioned a 2nd Lt. in the 3rd U.S. Infantry, and was assigned out West. The Third, incidentally, was the only infantry unit west of the Mississippi armed with Spencer Repeating Rifles w/triangular bayonets. He was appointed second-in-command of Forsyth's Scouts under Maj. "Sandy" Forsyth.  By Beecher's accounts prior to the battle in which he was killed, he was issued a Colt's Army .44 (M1860). There is no evidence that he carried the Savage gun during that expedition, especially since the Savage and holster and belt survived in possession of his relatives. He may also have had a Henry Repeating Rifle with him, as he had previously written his brother to send him one, and one is known to have been in the Beecher Island battle, where Beecher, himself was killed 18 Sept 1868.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Well, St. George, I guess everyone is entitled to his own opinion.  I would certainly own a M&H if available, and would love to try a Savage cap'n ball.  Market success does not always mean superior design - merely superior marketing or capitalization.

[SimmerinLightning]

I obviously know that nobody is likely to reproduce them. I was just wishing out loud. If I could afford to buy an original in excellent shape I would be afraid to fire it for fear of damage.

The word "superior" may connote a little too strongly, but why do you think it is not a better design? I am not an engineer and I have never held one, but it certainly seems to have some positive attributes. What do you mean by slow, bulky movement and boxy feel? It may take some getting used to, but...

Someone somewhere else pointed out that with a few minutes practice the dual trigger arrangememt and low boreline would make followup shots very fast , although that may have more appeal today than back then, I don't know.

[St. George]

Unlike most, if not all here - I've actually owned 'and' fired them.

Really...

And after I replaced the original nipples, and did a 'thorough' cleaning, both worked just as one might expect - they cycled and fired.

I would suggest that for a minor demonstration of my earlier comments that one should try one just to feel the overall heft and sense of ergonomics of one of these at one of the 'big' gun shows - ask the owner if you can just handle it without attempting to work the action, but put your fingers in their respective places as you do so, and you'll see first hand exactly what I refer to.

Then - remember that in their time of use, men shot them one-handed, so every action needed to cycle and fire is done with the firing hand - without help.

Once you've done all that - reach for a Model 1860 Army or a Model 1858 Remington and tell me which you'd prefer at your side when everything goes pear-shaped...

And when these were being considered for use, 'that' was the criteria - not because they had a 'cool factor', or because they'd been seen in a book, but the driving force was their suitability for combat, and that was something they really weren't suited well for.

They got issued because there existed a vast, empty hole that needed to be filled by just about anything that could fire in order to arm a rapidly expanding military - and even then, no one wanted them badly enough to issue them to the Regulars.

Part of the problem was that while 'interesting', the design was such that in order for it to operate effectively, it took three fingers to do so, and it was recommended that they be placed in storage for emergency issue.

That may have been fine for the Navy, but field service with the Army was an entirely different matter, and those that saw actual field service did so with Volunteer units - not Regulars.

In April, 1865, when mustering-out soldiers could take their revolvers with them if they purchased them and had the cost deducted from their mustering-out pay - 17 revolvers were purchased.

That's 17 revolvers - out of the entire production run from June 20, 1856 through June 10, 1862, including both Army and Navy contracts and those that went to Confederate states before the beginning of the War - of 12,510 revolvers.

Savage's biggest contribution to the war effort was the supplying of 25, 500 Model 1861 Springfield contract rifle muskets.

Scouts Out!

[MJN77]

I have also had the opportunity to handle and fire a Savage navy revolver. It is probably the most awkward feeling firearm I have ever held. All of the weight is in the front of the gun. It was nothing close to well balanced. And trying to manipulate the triggers was........ interesting. I have read numerous personal accounts of soldiers who carried these things in the ACW, and the reviews tend to lean to the negative side.

[SimmerinLightning]

Three fingers to operate? How so? The ring finger to cock it and the index to fire. What am I missing?

I have always found most long-barreled revolvers to be front-heavy: you say this is moreso? I did miss the fact that it is 3-1/2 lbs though Pretty heavy even for a .44 or .45, downright ridiculous for a .36

I still think they're purty neat.

[Major 2]

While you are reading up on the Savage-North

look at the Butterfield revolver , Warner Revolvers and Wesson & Levitt Revolver ,   and to a similar extent  the DA Pettingill ...

[St. George]

Think about it...

How do 'you' plan on holding the thing halfway steady with the first two fingers otherwise involved and moving?

Scouts Out!

[SimmerinLightning]

While you are reading up on the Savage-North

look at the Butterfield revolver , Warner Revolvers and Wesson & Levitt Revolver ,   and to a similar extent  the DA Pettingill ...

Yeah those are interesting, but I still think the Savage is pretty neat, maybe in a sort of gadgety kinda way.

How do 'you' plan on holding the thing halfway steady with the first two fingers otherwise involved and moving?

Hmm good point, especially in light of the aforementioned excessive weight. Still an intriguing idea though.

[St. George]

Only takes money...

Enough of it, and one can be yours.

Scouts Out!