Best Powder for 45LC CAS loads (Trail Boss v Tin Star - or what)?

[1972]

Was wondering if I could get some advice with regards to powders most suitable for Cowboy Action Shooting.

I’m just getting into loading my own ammunition.  I’ve been looking at Trail Boss and Tin Star.  I know there is some controversy regarding the future (or even current) availability of Tin Star but let’s avoid that for now and just deal with the performance of the respective powders.

As far as I know both Trail Boss and Tin Star are designed to be “bulky” powders that will essentially fill the cases being loaded, so in that sense I assume they are relatively the same.  Am I correct in that – are they both about the same for bulk?

With regards to performance I’ve heard Trail Boss described as “very dirty burning” powder.  I suppose that’s relative.  If you compared it to black powder then I’m sure it’s very clean burning.  If you compared it to some of the other modern smokeless powders I imagine it would be much dirtier.  Can anyone comment on whether Tin Star is any cleaner burning than Trail Boss?  And if they are both about the same, can anyone recommend another powder suitable for 45LC that would be cleaner burning?

Last thing.  Is there any significant difference in the pressures generated by Tin Star and/or Trail Boss?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[PJ Hardtack]

I like Trail Boss in .45 Colt and lately I've been using it in my .455's.

I was gifted with a lb. of Tin Star, but haven't loaded with it yet due to the lack of data.

It looks nothing like TB (small, grey flat donuts) and is small green/grey cubes, I would NOT extrapolate TB loads using Tin Star.

FWIT - try Unique or Red Dot, useful in all CAS calibres.

[Crow Choker]

The last issue of Handloader Magazine (Feb-March 2014, No. 288) has an article about 'Tin Star' and has listed loads for 8 handgun loadings and 2 rifle. I've never read much about Tin Star until the article, probably will never use it as I have a good supply of my regular favorite powders and a good supplier. In my area I hardly ever see any Vihtavuori powders. I do load/shoot and like Trail Boss, along with Unique and Red Dot.  P.J.-in case your curious, the author of the article RH VanDenburg (the magazines resident 'propellant'  section author, listed 8.3 grains of Tin Star for the 45 Colt using a 250 grain bullet, for approx. 842 fps in the gun he used.

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[1972]

Thanks guys.  I have no preferance one way or the other.  Just trying to figure out if one is considered better that the other by those who have used them.  I'm going to lay in a stock of which ever seems to be the best.  Seems to be a lot more users (and data) on the Trail Boss than on the Tin Star.

I repeat, I'm not knocking either product.  Just trying to figure out which one I should lay in a supplly of. 

[PJ Hardtack]

I've been haunting the book store waiting for that issue of 'Handloader' magazine. If it takes that much Tin Star for a .45 Colt load, it's not as powerful as Trail Boss.

The last issue of Handloader Magazine (Feb-March 2014, No. 288) has an article about 'Tin Star' and has listed loads for 8 handgun loadings and 2 rifle.
P.J.-in case your curious, the author of the article RH VanDenburg (the magazines resident 'propellant'  section author, listed 8.3 grains of Tin Star for the 45 Colt using a 250 grain bullet, for approx. 842 fps in the gun he used.

[Crow Choker]

Edit to my previous post--I should have said 'latest issue', not last issue of Handloader--just for clarification. The author of the article advised that his posted loadings were not min or max, rather middle of the road, which worked best for the guns he was using. Also his final summary of Tin Star was that "Tin Star is going to take further study to determine its best uses." But also stated "it seems the new powder may have a lot going for it." Not promoting Tin Star, just advising what I read.

[Deadeye Don]

I know you didn't mention Unique, but there are alot of CAS reloaders that use this powder including myself.

[1972]

Dead Eye Don & Crow Choker - I appreciate your thoughts on Unique.  I've heard quite a number of other people mention it as well.  I’m not that familiar with it personally, but have heard it's a very good and versatile powder.  I should take a look at that.

I have three main concerns with powder for my CAS loads.

First, I use a Dillon press, so need something that meters well through a progressive press.  Usually they like “ball” powders, so I am not sure how Trail Boss and/or Tin Start will work out there.

Second, case volume.  The advantage to Trail Boss and/or Tin Star is that they are bulky powders and pretty much fill up the case (at least so I am told).  I assume Unique or similar powders would not take up much room in a 45LC case.  I understand that can be an issue.  Obviously, if it works for you Don, then Unique does not seem to have a problem in this sense.

Third, and I suppose least important, I would like to use a clean burning powder – or at least as clean as I can get (relatively speaking).  Obviously, compared to the holy black, anything burns “clean”.  I have not as yet been able to find anybody who could comment on the difference (if there is a difference) between Trail Boss and Tin Star when it comes to “clean” burning.  I'm assuming Unique would be cleaner burning than either of them.

[Gus Walker]

  I dont load for cowboy action shooting but i do load a lot of 45 colt. I only use three powders and am satisfied with all three . Goex 2f for black, Trail boss and unique for when i'm lazy and dont want to have to clean em up as quickly. In my experiance Trail Boss and unique are both Excellant in the big 45. Its just with unique the dangers of a double charge are much greater.

[PJ Hardtack]

Unique has long been a standard pistol powder. It's getting difficult to find and when I do, I buy it up. All of the shotgun powders - Unique, Red Dort Green Dot, 700x are all good in pistol calibres as well. The new Unique is less smokey than the old formulation.

I wouldn't let the possibility of a double charge be a factor in my powder choice. I've developed a habit of not seating a bullet until I verify that I've dropped a powder charge. It's easier to do with shorter cases than long, but it is a good idea. I do it as the case comes out of the powder drop station or before I place a bullet after rotating the shell plate.

If I get out of sync or have any doubt at all, I set the round aside and pull the bullet. Big deal. Beats a bullet stuck in the barrel or worse. In the case of a limited run like I do with .455 Webley, I use an RCBS 'Li'l Dandy' and block check 50 rds at a time.

How dirty is dirty? All smokeless powders are cleaner than BP and some BP loads leave less crud in the barrel than some smokeless, at least as far as unburned particles are concerned. 5744 and 2400 come to mind. Some bullet lubes cause more smoke than do powders.

Cowboy guns smoke. Ain't it great? Nice problem to have.

[Cliff Fendley]

Unique is an old standard that you can't go wrong with. I personally like Trailboss because it is bulky. Titegroup give best accuracy in the guns I've tried for a smokeless powder.

Now to answer the original question, what is the 'best' powder for 45 CAS loads?

The answer to that is 2F black powder.    My personal preference at this time is Shuetzen or Old Eynsford. Swiss is too cost prohibitive for CAS.

[Deadeye Don]

I have never had the misfortune of a double charge with Unique, but then I am real careful.  It is true that you have alot of leftover space in a 45 colt, but if you are careful you will be fine.  Fortunately, I still have a little less than 20 pounds left.   

[1972]

Thanks fellows.  I appreciate all the tips and advice.

Guess I better keep my eyes open for some Unique.  Sounds like it would be a good thing to have around regardless of what you were going to load as it's so versatile.

I assume they still DO make it - but just like a lot of re-loading supplies it can be hard to find?

[PJ Hardtack]

Yeah, 'cause of all the hoarders like Deadeye .... ;>)

Guess I better keep my eyes open for some Unique.  Sounds like it would be a good thing to have around regardless of what you were going to load as it's so versatile.
I assume they still DO make it - but just like a lot of re-loading supplies it can be hard to find?

[Crow Choker]

Frank, ref your question on how Tin Star meters, according to the Handloader article, Vandenberg advised the powder was small 'kernels' compared to TrailBoss being flakes. Should meter better. I don't use a progressive reloader, but from experience and from what has always been written about powder metering, the small kernel and ball powders seem to always meter better. I've had the occasion of some of the larger flake powders being 'not as smooth', but never a big enough problem to cause any or significant difference in load accuracy. TrailBoss meters fine in my RCBS powder measure.
Ref your question about how TrailBoss and Tin Star compare in 'the clean burning area', he states that Tin Star is a little cleaner burning and is also a slower burning powder than TrailBoss, sort of in the area of Win 231.

To answer the third part of your question "or what" is the best powder for 45 Colt, I'd say whatever powder of the many that work best for your handgun and IS readily available. PJ in his post wrote of the use of "shotgun powders, Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot, and 700X. All would work, I've never used Green Dot and have found 700X to be a dirty burner(in my exp). Have reloaded many 45 Colt using Red Dot (a favorite and one of the powders I load a majority of 45 Colt with) and a lot using Unique, both excellent. As PJ, Don, and Gus stated, Unique is a great powder for the 45 Colt. Unique is properly named as it is "Unique" in that it works well for most calibers, including some rifle. I've loaded a lot of reduced cast bullet loads for my military bolt action rifles using Unique and Red Dot. I've never have used Unique for shotgun, but a lot of 12 gu trap loads with Red Dot. If I were to limit myself to just a handful of powders or even 2-3, Unique would be one of them. I've loaded revolver loads from 38 Spec, 357 Mag, 44 Spec, 44 Mag and 45 Colt with it. As stated, its cleaner burning now than it used to be back when Hercules owned the company. I've never used it for 45 Colt, but have seen load charts for it, but Hodgen TiteGroup is an excellent powder. I've loaded it in 45 ACP with excellent results. Clean burning, accurate, and it is one of Hodgens line of powders that ISNOT position sensitive in the case. One of its advertising selling points. A good advantage for smaller powder charges in a large case such as the 45 Colt. Two other powders that I've used are Winchesters 231 and Hodgons HP38. Both are basicly the same powder in different containers. The only drawback with these two are the large airspace in the large 45 Colt case, but both good clean burners, accurate. Could always do as Cliff suggested, use blackpowder. I don't load to many 45 Colt with it(a lot of 44 Colt rounds though for my Colt Richards II and Open Top), but black is a good shooter and a lot of fun.

I mentioned about having a good powder 'readily available'. Whatever sparked your interest in Tin Star and if you can get it and develop some loads, make sure you can get when needed and don't have to search 'the highways and byways' to replenish your needs. According to Vandenberg, he waited some time to get some and that was through a Hodgon Powder rep at 'the 2013 Shot Show (a year ago-I don't know when he wrote the article, but it just was published with the newest Handloader issue). VanDenburg states in his article that Hodgon is now the US distributor for Vihtavuori Powders (from Finland). I checked both Hodgons and Vihtavuori websites, neither made mention of any connection. Guess I said all this to say this-develop your loads from what you can buy and get again, locally if possible. Where I live in the North Iowa/Southern Minnesota area, the Vihtavuori powder isn't seen that much, at least in the places I go, so I wouldn't bet my loading projects on it. Not to say  Tin Star and all the Vihtavuori powders are not good products. I doubt if I will use Tin Star, I have to many powders now, keep tryin' to cut back, but its hard to get rid of 'old friends'! Good luck in your loading, I enjoy reloading as much as shooting, never seeing it as a dreaded chore-except case trimming, hate that part with a passion. Yours, Crow Choker
      

[1972]

Thank you very much for that reply Crow Choker.  I really appreciate the information and the time you took to send it.  Now it has me thinking again.

Guess the only logical thing to do is try a bit of each and see how it works for me.  I have some Trail Boss, and I know where I can get some Tin Star and some Unique so maybe I'll give them all a trial run.  Then, as you say, it comes down to supply.  I guess once you find something that works for you it would be a good idea to acquire enough of it to last for a while.

Might try that Tightgroup as well.  As you mentioned, it seems to have some advantages in the larger cases.

Thanks again for all your help and advice.

PS:  Is that article you mentioned available on line anywhere?  I'd sure like to read through that.

[longinosoap]

I use Trail Boss in 45. Have used Unique, good powder. Will use again if I need to. Like was said before, Titegroup is the best for accuracy, which I shoot in 38. 

I had never heard of Tin Star before reading this post.

[PJ Hardtack]

Not until next month's issue hits the news stands. They want you to buy the magazine.

PS:Is that article you mentioned available on line anywhere?  I'd sure like to read through that.

[1972]

No way I'll ever find that magazine up here.  Might be able to contact the publisher and "order" one through the mail.  I'll try that.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

My name is Bunk and I admit that I am a TrailBossaholic but I am in an FFg program to break that habit and go to the real cowboy powder, HOLY BLACK.
However having admitted that there are more than a few empty jugs of TrainBoss in the back of my shop and I am sold on that powder for CAS shooting. It loads quite nicely on my Dillon 550B progressives press but needs a little different technique to make consistent charges. Since it is a clumpy, fluffy powder it does not drop as fast as Unique or Titegroup, however I have found that if I hesitate a second on the powder charging stroke it meters very nicely.
Another advantage of TrailBoss is it is impossible to double charge  .45 Colt, .45 Cowboy Special, or .38 special cases so there is a distinct safety advantage. Even a wimpy double load would still be noticed and caught before any bad (KABOOM) might happen.
The idea it is a “dirty burning” powder is nonsense and makes no difference at CAS range targets. The unburned powder in the barrel is perhaps aesthetically unappealing, but has nothing to do with accuracy. Remember your barrel is always only “one shot dirty”.
I have not tried Tin Star powder and doubt that it can be found around here, but I subscribe to the “It ain’t broke, don’t fix it” attitude, but if I would have a relapse, fall off the wagon and  shoot smokeyless powder it would be TrailBoss. 
Respectfully   Submitted
Bunk