777 whats yer `pinion on it?

[Williewheelgun]

I loaded 777 in some shotshells.  I think the cartridges were Pyrodex.  At any rate, no one at the shoot seemed to know the differance from the genuine article. 
More powerful?  You have to believe it.  One stage called for 6 shots from your scattergun at one target.  I was using my mule-ear coach gun and the 777 loads.  I thought I could pick up some time by stroking the triggers, and it worked.  You could not hear any seperation between the two rounds.
About an hour later my middle finger and the back of my hand started swelling up.  It seems the recoil slammed the trigger guard into my finger so hard that it must have almost broke it.
I would do it again, but I would grip that stock a little tighter!

Willie

[Smokin Gun]

Ifin I can't fill my cylinder with it, and it's not recomended for my C&B Revs...I don't want it...I like "Holy Black" and that what I'll use. I also like lube pills on top of my powder they work great in my Revs anyway...thats my opinion I don't like it...

[Lars]

Speaking of BP subs anyone comapred 777 to Pinnacle? 

I know they are both ascorbic acid based but figure there are some differences in the amount of other ingredients.  They strike me as not much different then the old sugar rocket propellants.

As to comparing 777 to Pinnacle, check Cptn George Baylor's webbsite. 777 is much like Swiss in its performance. Pinnacle is repackaged  APP. Lots of difference between the two.

As to ascorbic acid! HUH!?! Last I knew 777 was still another charcoal-based BP. Never knew what Pinnacle is based on. Also, I sure cannot imagine 777 being like the old sugar rocket propellents.

Lars

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[Grizzly Adams]

I don't believe that 777 is the best BP sub to use in cowboy guns, especially original BP Arms.  It is a very hot powder that was designed specifically for use in modern in-line muzzle loading rifles.  I suspect it produces higher pressures, but I don't know for sure.

In any case, the proof is in the pudding, Paladin.  I served as a berm Marshall at EOT and watched a shooter who was using it in his shotgun.  Never seen the like!  The plastic hulls had to be poured out of the gun and they hit the ground in a smoldering molten state.  Melted down to the brass base.  Don't know what his load was, but they didn't seem to have anymore "umph" than normal.

[Lars]

 I suspect it produces higher pressures, but I don't know for sure.

In any case, the proof is in the pudding, Paladin.  I served as a berm Marshall at EOT and watched a shooter who was using it in his shotgun.  Never seen the like!  The plastic hulls had to be poured out of the gun and they hit the ground in a smoldering molten state.  Melted down to the brass base.  Don't know what his load was, but they didn't seem to have anymore "umph" than normal.

Well, visit Hodgdon's webbsite or pick up one of their pamphlets giving muzzle velocities and chamber pressures for various nitro, Pyrodex and 777 FFG loads. Then you will know that the pressures for Hodgdon recommended 777 FFG loads are well below SAAMI spec chamber pressures, actually down in the range for high quality sporting BPs, eg. Swiss.

Regardless of what Hodgdon designed 777 for, it is one of the very best BPs on the market today. Like ALL powders, it should be used according to its properties, NOT like it was some other powder. That is kinda basic for loading your own ammo.

There are some really low quality plastic hulls out there, mostly used in ammo that was never expected to be source of hulls for reloading. Eley is one, some Fiocchi hulls are bad, some quite OK, ditto for Cheddite. I used in 777 FFG in 12 guage CAS 1,0 oz and 7/8 oz loads for many matches, including Winter Range one year, and got almost as many loading per Remington STS hull as with ballistically similar nitro loads. Actually, the hulls were cleaner after use with 777 FFG than with Red or Green Dot powders.

Lars

[Grizzly Adams]

Lars, I do not doubt what you are saying about SAAMI specs in regards to 777.  I am confident that the powder is safe in modern arms.  The question in my mind, is whether the pressure curve is the same as "real" BP?  We all know that the pressure curve on BP is different than smokeless powders.  A powder can meet SAAMI specs, and still differ in terms of BP charecteristics.   I will be quick to add that I have the same question in regards to APP and all the other subs.  It is for that reason, that I don't use subs in antique arms.  Maybe I am just overly cautious.

Do you know of anything that documents the actual pressure curve produced by the various subs in comparison to BP?   I have also asked this question of various manufacturer representatives, and I get vague answers or blank stares!

You may be correct about the quality of the hulls, but anything that will melt down any plastic hull is HOT!  After all, the hulls, whatever they were, had survived at least one loading of smokeless with no problem.

One last question:  Does Hogden recommend 777 for use in C&B revolvers?

[Lars]

Grizzly Adams,

To answer your questions in sorta reverse order, yes, Hodgdon does list loads for 777 FFFG in C&B revolvers. NOTE: they only list the FFFG granulation for use in C&Bs, NOT in cartridges. Go to the Hodgdon webbsite for loading data.  I have always used the FFG granulation of 777 in my C&Bs -- and with excellent results. One can overload the weak old Colt C&B designs with any BP -- it is just easier with 777. I stick almost entirely with solid frame C&Bs.

As regards pressure curves, I am one that puts absolutely no credance in the the touted differences in "BP" vice nitro powders. For many reasons, not the least of which is that all nearly all of the pressure spike following ignition occurs while the powder is still in the catridge case. In addition, there are such huge differences in how fast different nitro powders spike that any blanket statement comparing BP to nitro powders is pretty baseless. Also, I am a card carrying member of that group of folks that use low pressure nitro loads in old guns. Why? Because presssure is pressure  -- really. A load that does not exceed 6.000 psi is still only subjecting the gun to 6.000 psi, no matter what the fine details of the pressure spike. Detailed data about the shape of the "pressure spike" are routinely seen with modern transducer equipment -- however, there is little value in recording it for routine development of loading data to be made public -- it really is irrelevant in this regard.

FYI, we do get P&V data for the low-pressure nitro loads we use. No flying around in the dark for us.

ALL BPs heat up plastic shotshells, brass and paper ones too -- Goex is one of the worst, it even burns little holes in plastic and paper hulls. Pick up someones brass shotshells that were fired with Goex, Pyrodex, 777, etc. -- they are quite hot. They are not so hot with nitro powders. My experience with BP shotshells has nearly all been with either lubed fiber wads or one-peice plastic ones. NEVER had a plastic shell show much effects of high temps, other than Goex burning little holes in them. I did once use some totally dry, rough edged fiber wads and got some really bizzare results -- had to lube the wads to get rid of the problem.

Lars

[sundance44`s]

sorry to but in ... but i saw you wondering about APP black powder sub .. i have used it in muzzle loaders and bp cartrages too .. its slow real slow ... i dont think app company wants to bost on it being slow .. but i`ll give you a comparision .. same load with pyrodex in all my arms shoots 3 inches higher than APP at just 25 yards ... i like to use it in my 45 colt marlin because the clean up is a dream and it won`t cause rust of any kind anywhere .. and i don`t use lubes when i reload the 45`s .. it shoots pretty clean .. i may run a swab once every 100 shots in the rifle .. so its really no effort in the cleaning dept ...

[Grizzly Adams]

Thanks for the reply, Lars.  I always enjoy talking guns with knowledgeable folks, and sharing information and experiences.  There may be something to what you say about pressure being pressure regardless of the propellent.  I do know that the "feel" of the gun -rifles in particular - is very different when using smokeless, subs and BP.  Now whether or not that "difference" is a matter of concern in terms of old guns, has always been a question for me.  I know a lot of BP shooters who get real activated about it!

All BP and the subs burns hot as you have noted.  The old "hotter than a two dollar pistol" comes to mind!

I have shot antique guns using, what I and others feel is "low pressure, BP equivalent loadings" and have seen no problem either.  Of course, I am not shooting them all that much, and so can't say what the long term effect would be.

Sundance, I agree with you in regards to APP!  I love the stuff and use it in all my CAS guns!  Cleaned two pistols last night in 5 minutes.  APP is pretty mellow, and that is why I like it in my Open Tops, which are not the strongest design out there!  Pretty gental on equipment.  That said, a full case of APP in my model 1876 Winchester will get your attention,  but again, "feels" different than BP in the same arm.  Caliber 45-75.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

My luv is with Pyrodex and 777 for subs. 777 for shotshell, Pyrodex P for cartridges and "Select" for long range shooting.

I have spoken to a few folks who have purchased salt peter and sulfur online and made coal from chunks of hickory.

Rather "hardcore" for most folks, and likely to put you in the hospital, but, if its what you gotta do...

Is there a limit to how much powder you can purchase/keep at once? I would "squirrel" some away (safely) and dig into it when you need.