1858 Remington+Bullets and Alloy Hardness

[R. Flux]

I'm making progress with my 1858 Pietta Remington with round ball loads, not finished by a long shot, but learning the ropes.  Your collective earlier advice was excellent and improved my progress.  The Big Lube "Tower of Power" is handy to use.  I'm thinking about bullets and did an informal scan to past comments about the proper alloy for Cap & Ball.  All felt pure Pb was the only way to go for round ball.  On slugs there was no consensus.  I checked over at CastBoolits also.  I  had to be careful not to mix in loads for cartridge guns.

About 30% felt that only pure Pb is the only proper metal versus about 30% who felt WW (air cooled) work fine.  Others were divided between 40-1 (Pb-Sn), 30-1, 24-1 and 20-1.  This gives a BHN range of between 5 and 12.

Can anyone suggest an optimal BHN for a cast bullet fired from a replica 1858 Remington of recent manufacture?  I am highly attracted to cast bullets ranging from 150 to 230 grs. , as they span the weight range from round ball to original paper cartridges.  As a bonus POI and POA might coincide.  Also all that additional bearing surface looks good to me.

There are many ways to get to a specific hardness (BHN); as long as it is harder than "5"(Pb).  Dozens of common alloy mixes can get to the desired BHN and the components are readily available.  Obviously a water quenched WW+high Antimony alloy or Monotype alloy is not desired.

All thoughts and comments are welcome.

Regards,
R. Flux

[Raider2000]

I only use pure Lead 5BHN
Adhesive Wheel Weights 5.5BHN
Lead 98%
Antimony .25%
Trace elements 1.75% (Arsenic, cadmium, calcium, copper, silver, tin, etc).


They are soft enough for ease of loading & for decent expansion when they strike the target.

I you go the Adesive Wheel Weight route you have to watch wat you get though because they now do make Zinc WW's & they are hard as crap & are too light IMHO.

[Deadguy]

As long as you can gouge the lead with your fingernail it is soft enough for BP shooting.

[Advertising]

[Montana Slim]

You'll notice a difference right off when you try to ram a ball home that is not pure lead 
Don't forget your Wheaties! 

Regards,
Slim

[Steel Horse Bailey]

A lot of rammer handles have been replaced thanks to using bullets made harder than pure (or nearly) lead.  I've heard of folks using small "cheater" pipes to ram the bullet home.

 

[Dick Dastardly]

Although the Tower of Power cylinder loader has a LOT of leverage and is built to take it, I recommend pure lead round balls a couple of thousandths larger than the chambers.  The EPP-UG and DD/ROA-II big lube bullet designs were made to work with harder metal without over stressing the loading mechanism.  They have fairly narrow driving bands and are lube/sized to chamber size for an interference fit.  The actual sizing is done with a lube/sizer and the rammer on the TOP stand or the gun has only to seat the lube/sized bullet.

Because those bullets carry their own lube, there's no need or use for wads, cookies or other accouterments.  They very effectively seal the chambers and prevent chain fire from the cylinder front and provide lots of lube for full match shooting with no loss of accuracy or function.

The re-designed DD/ROA, now designated the DD/ROA-II, has a DOUBLE rebate base. Both .450 and .444 rebates allow easy use in guns with a variety of chamber mouth sizes.  Many of the Uberti and Pietta made replica guns have chambers as small as .446" and even these undersized chamber mouths will allow use of the DD/ROA-II.  Here again, cheap WW metal can be safely used when following the instructions included with the mold.

DD-DLoS

[Raider2000]

I'm seriously conciddering saving the $$$ to get one of your molds bud because the DD-ROA seems to be a great replacement to my Lee .456 220gr.  conical I presently use for my Custom Pietta NMA w/ 5.5" barrel.

[R. Flux]

Thanks for the comments.  Been digging around about hardness (BHN) and have collected a little data from many sources.
Common Bullet Alloys
Alloy                                 BHN                                                                                                    Specific Gravity
Lead                                 5                                                                                                        11.34
WW (stick on)                   5.3         98% Pb, .25% Antimony, 1.75% trace Ar, Si, Ca, Sn, etc.
85.7% Pb + 14.3% WW     6.0        6 to 1 (Pb-WW)
83.3% Pb + 16.7% WW     6.2        5 to 1 (Pb-WW)
80% Pb + 20% WW           6.4        4 to 1 (Pb-WW)
75% Pb + 25% WW           6.75        3 to 1 (Pb-WW)
Tin                                    7                                                                                                        7.3
50% Pb + 50% Range scraps7        50% Pb, 50% Range scraps
70% Pb + 30% WW           7.1         7 to 3 (Pb-WW)
60% Pb + 40% WW           7.8         6 to 4 (Pb-WW)
1 to 40 (Sn-Pb)                  8 (8.5)    97.5% Pb, 2.5% Sn
Range scraps                      8-10       98.1% Pb, 1.9% Antimony, .1-.2% tin
1 to 30 (Sn-Pb)                  8.5-9      97% Pb, 3% Sn
½ Pb + ½ WW                  9            for 45acp & 38sp
6 lb Pb + ½ lb 50/50 solder  9
1 to 24 (Sn-Pb)                  9.6        95.8% Pb, 4.2% Sn
1 to 20 (Sn-Pb)                  10         95% Pb, 5% Sn   original alloy used in early bullets                      11.0
1 to 16 (Sn-Pb)                  11         94% Pb, 6% Sn
50% Lyman #2+ 50% Pb    11
1 to 10 (Sn-Pb)                  11.5      91% Pb, 9% Sn                                            10.5
WW (clip on)                     12         95.25% Pb, .5% Sn, 4% antimony, .025% arsenic                11.01
Electrotype                          12         94.5% Pb, 3.0% Sn, 2.5%antimony
75% WW + 25% linotype   12.5       93.1% Pb, 1.1% Sn, 5.8% antimony
Lead shot                           13        .5-1.0% arsenic, hardens when heat treated; ¼ of 1% arsenic.
80% WW + 20% stereotype14.5     92.4% Pb, 1.6% Sn, 6.0% antimony
Lyman #2                           15        90% Pb, 5% Sn, 5% antimony                                                  10.683
Taracorp Magnum                15        92% Pb, 2% Sn, 6% antimony (common in commercial lead bullets)
50% Pb + 50% Linotype      15        50% Pb+50% Linotype
Water quench ½Pb +½ WW18        some BHN variation
50% Pb + 50% Monotype    20        mix 50/50 with pure lead (for rifle)
Linotype                             21       4% Pb, 4% Sn, 12% antimony                                                   10.4
Water quenched WW          22        some BHN variation
Stereotype                         23        80% Pb, 6% Sn, 14% antimony                                                    11.3
Monotype                          28        72% PB, 9% Sn, 19% antimony
Oven treated WW            30-32      heat treating with arsenic present to about 30 to 32 BHN
Foundry                             32        62% Pb, 15% Sn, 23% antimony
Antimony                           50                                                                                                     6.68

Is there a minimum chamber pressure for lead alloys?
A formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obdurate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obdurate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422.
   Example: Alloy BHN of 12 multiplied by 1422 = 17,064. An alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a "minimum" of 17,000 psi. Need more info on minimum / maximum alloy BHN?

BUT I don't shoot "proof loads"; so much softer is appropriate: 5 to 7 BHN (?)

Conicals could be harder as lube grooves are design enable easier deformation and filling the grooves. So maybe BHN 6 to 9 or 10?

Part of this is thinking about available alloy and cost of components.

What do you think?  Anybody know about psi in Cap & Ball pistols in normal loads?  Or where to look?
Regards,
R. Flux

[Noz]

This ain't rocket surgery!
Shoot a lead projectile that is soft enough to load without straining the loading lever on the gun. I'd use the loading lever as a guide and if you find the alloy that works that way then use your off gun loading arraingement for that alloy.  then you know you are good to go.

[john boy]

 

Anybody know about psi in Cap & Ball pistols in normal loads?  Or where to look?

Flux, these MIGHT work doing the calulations and knowing the area in square inches

http://www.lasc.us/ConversionTables.htm
Muzzle Energy            
      Weight of bullet (in grains) x velocity (in foot seconds) x velocity x 0.000002218 = energy in foot pounds.              
Example: 100 grain bullet at 3000 ft/seconds > 100 x 3000 x 3000 x 0.000002218 = 1996 foot pounds energy.

Nominal C&B loading data that gives fps on the Goex Powder website  ... http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/RB-Pistol-Revolvers.pdf
The calculation for pressure (psi) ... http://www.tpub.com/content/engine/14037/css/14037_57.htm

Might add thanks, am impressed with your alloy table (and have copied it to my computer), particularly the WW + Pb = Bhn's.  I do a lot of mixing with Pb and WW's and your chart will come in handy.  The only Bhn that I have found to be different on the chart is clip on WW's.  The 800 lbs or so that I have, the Bhn's are 13.5 or 14.3.  Some folks say they have clip on's with a 9.0 Bhn.  These weights have to be off a '48 Roadster because I have never come across such soft WW's   

[Raider2000]

WOW I thought for sure that Adhesive WW's would be in the 5.5 range but they are closer to the BHN of pure PB that I really thought.

[Noz]

WOW I thought for sure that Adhesive WW's would be in the 5.5 range but they are closer to the BHN of pure PB that I really thought.

I had a nice bucket of stick-on ww that I melted down Friday. I was disappointed to find that a big percentage were either steel or zinc.

[Raider2000]

I had a nice bucket of stick-on ww that I melted down Friday. I was disappointed to find that a big percentage were either steel or zinc.

Yeah tis why I mentioned it in my first post in here.

Basically I take the steel & the foam ones out first, then I'll take the ones that are obviously Lead from the pile out "those are usually slightly smaller in size than the Zinc ones which helps" & then I'll check them by scratching them with my finger nail.
If I can nearly cut a nice scratch in them with my finger nail I know I have the lead ones, Zinc will not scratch easily.