"Take-Apart" Spencer !!!

[Drydock]

I had a friend in NC who had over rotation that the shim would not fix.  He ordered a couple of trigger plates from Chiappa, and found that no two are the same length!  One of them was long enough to fix the problem though.

[Herbert]

The longer trigger plate is the only true fix for over rotation(add meatal at front of plate and re shape or new one) the shim works but can tighten the action up,the last Chippa  Spencer I bought the plate(action stop)was the right length as have a couple of newer ones I have worked on ,I thought the problem had been fixed apparently not

[PJ Hardtack]

It is the curse of the internet, that for every unhappy bitcher, there are thousands of folks perfectly happy with their purchase, with no need to go online to proclaim it.

I hope that you weren't referring to me .... 

[Advertising]

[Drydock]

Not at all!  Just an observation regarding the numbers of Spencers that Chiappa seems to be moving.  And at how the Internet works.  Or does not!


You know the type:  The foul language, the Go-Fund-me campaign to pay for kerosene and torches so they can burn down the factory . . .

[PJ Hardtack]

BTW - as I reported on the Reloading list, yesterday I cast a batch of the best looking bullets I've ever produced using my new Accurate 51-350S mould. Had to change my technique due to the rapid cooling of the aluminum blocks.

I'm going to make a few more dummies to see how they feed in my Spencer.

[Coal Creek Griff]

It sounds like, after some "challenges" to make the process interesting, things are coming together for you.  I hope that you enjoy your gun as much as I do mine.  I use the same bullet design that you have and it cycles very well (taking the design into consideration--of course it isn't as smooth as my Winchester-style lever actions).  The Spencer carbine has turned out to be one of the most "fun" guns that I have.  I'm also enjoying following your progress.

CC Griff

[PJ Hardtack]

Today I took the breechblock out of the gun for the first time.

I noticed that the hole in the rear of the receiver through which the rds feed is NOT centred, being off to the right. I first noticed this yesterday when cycling dummies as the top rd seemed off to the right a tad.

"Tad" - adj., Cowboy talk for a few mm's; aka as a "smidgen".

I reinstalled the block and it functions just fine.

Is this a normal condition ... 

[Herbert]

This is normal With Spencers ,It is this off center to make room for the lock

[El Supremo]

Sorry, Herbert, this took a while.  Nice to have your help.

Short answer, yes, PJ; the mag tube hole is offset. That is the original design.

That reminds me: Sooner or later you will be playing doctor with it.

There is a SPECIFIC order of steps for disassembly:

Be esp. careful if you disassemble the butt stock from the outer mag tube or remove the lock.  
First put lock at half cock and remove both lock screws because the rear one may ride in a shallow slot ON the top of outer mag tube. If so, then there IS a serious contact than prevents stock removal or even sliding it rearward to remove wood pressure on the lock plate.
Do not yet pull the lock to avoid chipping the edges of the wood.
Remove the trigger bar screws, but leave the bar in place.
Remove the butt plate.  Then STUDY the nut on the end of the mag tube.  
There are two versions that require FITTED slot spanners.  
Don't bugger it with a hastily rigged tool because you CAN get it off, but won't have the torque needed without a t-handle FITTED tool when resetting the tube nut.  

With a well fitting tool on the mag nut, FIRST try to twist it tighter. You might find it a bit loose, maybe an eighth to a quarter turn from snug.  It has to go back THAT WAY because if too tight, the stresses from over tightening can interfere with lock and trigger bar fit in the wood AND in rare cases cycling because the mag tube becomes pushed sideways.  NOW you know the FEEL of the nut for later on.
Ok, you can bring it to "contact" when reassembling..

NOW, barely pull the stock rearward maybe a 64th INCH so you SEE a little clearance at the rear of the lock plate and trigger plate.  Now GENTLY remove them.  

PLEASE READ THE NEXT SENTENCE TWICE:

Do NOT twist the stock to remove it because twisting can damage concealed wood to metal contacts that provide IMPORTANT SUPPORT.  

AND if the mag tube is NOT TIGHTLY  butted in the receiver, the tube may twist a little tighter and the location of that shallow slot on its outer surface can be lost!

So, pull the stock STRAIGHT rearward IN LINE WITH THE MAG TUBE, NOT THE CENTERLINE OF THE BORE!

NOW don't touch the tube --- LOOK at the outer end of the tube against the rear of the receiver and put a dry marker index mark on the tube : receiver intersection for reassembly reference.

Next, FIRST try to turn the tube DEEPER (to the right) in case it is not butted in the receiver.  
Some are NOT tight.  

The mag tube MUST go back to the same rotational spot, tight or slightly loose, whichever, SO THAT ANY LOCK CROSS SCREW CLEARANCE IS RESTORED.

If NOT tighly butted and you LATER butt the tube in th3 receiver hole, the rear lock screw slot will be in the wrong location to allow the rear lock screw to align.  This WILL ruin your WHOLE DAY.  HAHA.
During reassembly test rear lock screw fit and alignment with any shallow screw shank clearance spot with a drill shank of screw diameter.
BETTER if the tube is butted, but the index mark will compensate if not butted.

Do not polish or paint the outside of the mag tube.  It is usually a snug pull/push and it has to remain that way.

For first disassembled stocks, BEING CAREFUL TO NOT SNAG WOOD GRAIN/ PAPER THIN SECTIONS OPPOSITE THE LOCK INLETTING, I SLOWLY run a piece of toweling well saturated with boiled linseed oil through the butt stock tube hole, wipe dry with towel patch and let sit TWO days to dry WELL..  A 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and MinWax urethane does well, too.  Each is a sealer.  Two days, now or it can stick on he tube later.

I do NOT polish any internal surfaces!  Normal use will produce "shiny spots" that can be lightly dabbed w wheel bearing grease.

Oh, yes, as for BLUE LOCTITE on the striker bar SCREWS, there are several old posts here about not using more than will seal ONLY the threads.  Letting excess ooze from the threads may cause striker bar resistance.

Use a mainspring vise, NOT channel locks on the mainspring.  
Compress it ONLY enough to wiggle loose.
Over compression, so common with channel locks can be nasty.
Be very careful with the vise so the spring doesn't fly out of compression because that causes cracking.

Regards,
Kevin

[PJ Hardtack]

Good Lord! Good thing for me I no longer am the type to take things apart just to see how they work .... Now I'm in the "if'n it ain't broke, don't fix it" crowd.

When I was in  the service, I once took a Browning 9mm Hi-Power down completely 'cause I had an exploded view drawing and 'cause I could. I didn't realize that reassembly was going to require more skill and smarts than I had.

I ended up shipping it back to Browning as I was too embarrassed to take it to our base armourer for fear that word would get out.

Hopefully it will be a long time before I need to discombobulate the Spencer.

[El Supremo]

Thanks, PJ:

Absent giving it a float test, there should be little need to pull the stock.

Please let us know what (if) you do to lower your t-pull weight. 

Kevin

[Coal Creek Griff]

I do NOT polish any internal surfaces!  Normal use will produce "shiny spots" that can be lightly dabbed w wheel bearing grease.

Kevin,

Are you including springs here?  I did some internal polishing on mine, particularly the mainspring (see before and after pictures below).  I did remove some other roughness, although I'm pretty conservative when I polish internal parts...

CC Griff

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Coal Creek:

What were the pull weights before and after mainspring polishing, please?

Thanks,
Kevin

[Coal Creek Griff]

I'm afraid that I have not measured the pull weight. I only polished it enough to take out the machining marks. I doubt that it changed the strength of the spring very much.

CC Griff

[El Supremo]

At least for me, the lessons and current info in this thread that I don't recall in prior ones or "SORI" are:

1. Armisport/Chiappa Spencers spanning at least ten years of production present both a partially visible upper
    block screw BELOW the receiver and a top block that is a bit low. Still, the firing pin centering seems ok.
    Original 1860 Spencers do not present these differences, so the Armisport version is different.
    Marcot, on page 86, shows an 1865 receiver WITH a bit of the upper block screw visible below the frame!
    The LANE extractor was patented June, 1867, per Marcot.

     It could be that the use of the Lane extractor, the 56-50 cartridge and the WIDER ctg feed guide on the
     Armisport version indicates that an 1865 Model was copied!

    This A'sport Spencer screw visibility thing over such a wide range of years of production caused me to revisit
     the excellent color photo's on Google of the Fletcher-Bidwell Spencer repro.  Wow, SAME screw visibility!

     Then I called Taylor's and spoke with the Op's Mgr, Ashley, who shared that a Taylor's principlal had a
      prototype Spencer built by a U.S. gunsmith. It was sent to A's/Chiappa to be adapted into a production
      version.  She further indicated that there were internal things that were slightly different from original 1860,
      56-56 caliber Spencers, such as the Lane extractor and from my simple comparison, possibly the use of the
      wider 1865 cartridge feed guide in some calibers.  Made me wonder about if that gunsmith copied an.
      original, how come the FB screw visibility was included?

      Since ONLY the few completed F-Bidwell examples and all of the A'S Spencers I have either seen or I have
      detailed photo's of display the visible block screw below the frame, my deduction is that AFTER the F-B
      venture failed, either Mr. Ken Howell a gifted gunsmith or his predecessor, both of FB, made the A'S
      prototype for Taylor.

      Clearly, the visible block screw IS different from both original and Romano "dead-nuts" reproductions.

2.  Serial numbers are all over the place and "bear no correlation to production dates or variations",
     per Ashley at Taylor's.

3. Barrel to receiver thread looseness has been found on new, right-out-of-box, ones.  
     PJ' s is the second reported one mentioned directly to me that was quite loose.
     Hard to accept that sort of goof on a gun in production this long and that they PASSED INSPECTION!

4.   Dummy rounds should have HARD alloy noses to resist gouging during cycling testing.
      Even with hard alloy bullets, they often gouge enough over just a few uses that cycling is impaired.
      File raised edges on nose gouges.  Best to use FRESH ones if ANY cycling stiffness.

5.  Getting 35 gr. 3F into a Starline case requires either a compression die or shorter bullet.  
     33 gr will do just fine and not risk case buckling.

6.  RCBS dies work well!

Thanks,

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
    

[PJ Hardtack]

Chiappa/Italy has yet to respond to my SECOND email re: the loose barrel issue. They did want the serial # and expressed concern about the loose barrel band.
The barrel bands on all my other single shot rifles are a snug fit. Why can't Chiappa accomplish that, I wonder  .....  

[Will Ketchum]

P J plase don't apologize. I for one have found your journey interesting even though I don't currently have a Spencer

[Coal Creek Griff]

Here's the SORI thread: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14075.0.html

CC Griff

[Will Ketchum]

AMEN!!!

[PJ Hardtack]

I heard back from Chiappa re: the loose barrel and barrel band on my carbine.

They told me that they use a green Loc Tite he called "Vibratite", so they know they have a problem. They are looking into the issue at their end.
They also suggested that I bend my barrel band and/or shim it to make it fit!

I told them that was unacceptable on a new rifle and I expected a new barrel band.

Unbelievable ....