.44 S&W Frontier DA Pierced Primers

[freedomlives]

Awhile ago I took the gun to the range and fired about 50 blackpowder handloads through it.  Primers used were "CCI Large Pistol" and "Federal Large Magnum Pistol".  Almost all of the primers were pierced and a couple of times the gun locked up because of it (i.e., I had to manually pull the hammer back, pulling trigger for DA shot wouldn't pull it out).  This was somewhat disconcerting, as at the time I would also be carrying that revolver up into the field or through walks in the woods for self-defense...  Now I've just gotten my gun license here, so I probably won't be relying on that gun for life-or-death things, but I still want it to be nice to shoot! 

I did some testing tonight which was perhaps pointless, but the results were that, if an inert primer (after soaking in soapy water for a few hours) was struck by the firing pin, a nice, normal dent was made, albeit off-center on the primer.  If either type of live primer is fired in an empty case, the result is as in the attached photo-- primer backed out, hole in it.  From the live-rounds I shot a couple of months ago, most re-seated based on the case moving back, but they all had a similar sort of hole in the primer.

For some reason when I got the gun, it was missing the pin that should go in the middle of the cylinder and push against the depression in the breech plate, so you can see in the photo my crudely fashioned temporary replacement until I find a gun smith to fabricate something like the original.  With that as it is, the cylinder to barrel gap is 0.008" and the gap between the bottom of a Starline brass case and the breach plate is 0.025".  Are these sort of normal gaps?

I tried various settings of the mainspring screw without seeing any difference, except taking a bit more force to cock back the hammer.

I am also wondering about the engraved circle around the firing pin-- that should normally be there?

Is the fact that the firing pin is striking off of center causing these holes, since it isn't striking against the anvil in the middle of the primer?  Is it possible to bend the tip of the firing pin without breaking it?

Also, the rust spots on there don't look nearly as bad in real life, flash doesn't help things.  I keep the gun oiled so they won't grow!  Maybe if I get a lot of money someday I'll re-do the finish on it...

Thanks for any thoughts!

[Will Ketchum]

I have had 2 revolvers that pierced their primers.  Both could be traced to the firing pin being too sharp.  One I couldn't detect with my naked eye but under a glass it was obvious..  Even if there is a bit too much play between the rear of the cylinder and the recoil plate I wouldn't think it shoudln't pierce the primer if the pin is well rounded at BP pressures.

Let us know what you find.

Will Ketchum

[WV Scrounger]

I too a couple of photos of my .38 2nd mod S&W to show ya what the pin looks like




   it is round and smooth as can be...

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[Pancho Peacemaker]

Been looking at this puzzle for the last day.

Taking a close look at picture number 2:  The ratchet teeth look pretty worn on the extractor.  That fact along with the temporary base pin will likely throw the timing off.  If the timing is off, your hammer will not strike true center.

You might call Dave Chicoine and see if he has a replacement extractor and base pin.  Even if it is not listed on his web site, he may know were to get one.  http://www.oldwestgunsmith.com/gunparts/44da.htm

If you ever think about selling it, let me know.  I love these old DA revolvers.


Pancho

P.S.:  I own two of these 44DA Frontier models, and my hammers look just like the one in your photo.

[Irish Dave]

In photo 3, it appears that your promers are backing out significantly. Obviously, they're not supposed to do that. If this is true and not just an effect of the photo, a couple of other things come to mind:

1) Are your loads sufficiently powerful to prevent this backing out?
2) It doesn't appear that the recoil plate is badly worn, but probably bears inspection.
3) Are you getting your primers fully seated in the pocket?

It is possible that when the primers back out, that the firing pin -- which might be just fine when contacting a flush-seated primer-- is simply being brought too close to the primers, therefore extending further into the primer than what is intended or appropriate.  That could also be causing the punctures.

Just a thought......

[freedomlives]

In photo 3, it appears that your promers are backing out significantly. Obviously, they're not supposed to do that. If this is true and not just an effect of the photo, a couple of other things come to mind:

Sorry, I should have attached a different photo of a case and primer from a live round.  The pictured one is just from an empty case which I primed that evening to see that it wasn't something to do with pressure from the powder burning causing the hole.

The cases that were loaded with BP, if the primer was still out of the case after firing, it was only slightly so, that I can remember.

The firing pin is striking the primer off center and down, that is towards the center of the cylinder, so I don't think timing is the problem.

What I am thinking now, is that if I could change the point the firing pin strikes at, that is to strike 0.1" higher in the center of the primer, so that it is contacting at the point where the primer's thin brass is backed up by the anvil, then it won't push through.

But first, I'll try some different primers.  There are at least some Czech primers available which are supposed to have a harder primer cup and weaker priming composition.  Since the inert primers just had normal dents in them, but the primers from both empty and loaded cases had holes, I think the combination of increasing cup toughness and reducing primer set-back force might do the trick.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Us 44DA owners have to stick together.

Mine is chambered for 44 Russian and I have no problems with pierced primers.

First off, see if you can get a measurement on how far your firing pin is protruding through the recoil shield. It looks to me as if it may be protruding a bit too far. Here is a photo of mine, it protrudes right about .050 when the hammer is all the way down. I had to pull the cylinder off to get enough clearance to get the depth gauge part of my caliper in there, but then it was easy. Notice that my firing pin is also down near the bottom of the hole. I do not think position is a problem. Extra protrusion is more likely a problem.




Here are three fired cartridges from my DA 44, still with their fired primers in them. The two on the left were fired normally. The one on the right I put back in the gun and dropped the hammer on it a couple of more times. Notice the dent is significantly deeper. The hammer on a gun like this stops against the frame. But I also noticed that when I chambered the brass with spent primers the hammer did not bottom quite all the way. It was about .020 or so from all the way down. You can do the same test, with once fired primers. You will have to lift the latch to see the position of the hammer. If you lift the latch, and then slowly open the gun, you can see if there is any movement of the hammer as the spent case is moved away from it. What this means, at least in the case of my DA44 is that when the firing pin strikes the primer, the hammer has not fallen quite all the way, by about .020, but it is enough to fire the primer and the firing pin does not pierce the primer.





Lastly, here is what my firing pin looks like. Notice the little 'nipple' at the end. I do not know if that is how it left the factory, but it works quite well. You can actually see in the protrusion photo that just the 'nipple' is protruding through the hole, and it is relatively blunt. This gun has been refinished at some point, so I do not know if the firing pin shape is as it was when it left the factory. But I get no pierced primers.



I notice the end of your cylinder rod looks to be threaded. If so, that is not the way it left the factory. The extractor star on these guns was a separate part brazed onto the cylinder pin. It was not too difficult to break one off. I suspect at some point somebody threaded yours in order to refasten the ejector star, which may have broken off. Be sure the end of the rod is polished smooth or it will tear up the depression it fits into in the recoil shield.



My advice about the pierced primers is to first find out how far your firing pin protrudes through the recoil shield before you do anything.

P.S just noticed the bit in your first post about the jury rigged cylinder pin.

P.P.S. Dunno what the story is with your recoil shield. You can see it is not the same as mine. Does the SN on the cylinder match that on the butt of the gun? Perhaps that cylinder was substituted to the gun later. The cylinder should have the SN stamped on the rear face. You can just barely see it in one of my photos.

[freedomlives]

Howdy

Us 44DA owners have to stick together.

...

My advice about the pierced primers is to first find out how far your firing pin protrudes through the recoil shield before you do anything.

....

P.P.S. Dunno what the story is with your recoil shield. You can see it is not the same as mine. Does the SN on the cylinder match that on the butt of the gun? Perhaps that cylinder was substituted to the gun later. The cylinder should have the SN stamped on the rear face. You can just barely see it in one of my photos.

I measured 0.060" protrusion.  Interestingly, there is no serial number on the cylinder at all, just underneath the extractor on the cylinder there are two 'K's stamped.  Is it possible that the cylinders for the .44-40 frontier weren't stamped with serial number, or is this an indication the cylinder was replaced?

If this gun has been repaired, then I wonder if the hammer could have been swapped out?  Certainly it wouldn't be leaving the factory with a firing pin too long.

Anyway, I did a little bit of filing to round the profile of the pin, and now it doesn't pierce the CCI primers, though it still strikes off center.  I think I'll load up some rounds with just those primers and see how they do next time I get to the range, then maybe file it slightly more.

Thanks for taking those measurements so I have a point of comparison!

[Pancho Peacemaker]

I.  Is it possible that the cylinders for the .44-40 frontier weren't stamped with serial number, or is this an indication the cylinder was replaced?

My .44WCF Frontiers have serials on the cylinders.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

No SN on the cylinder is a pretty good indication the gun did not leave the factory with that cylinder. Serial Numbers generally show up in four places on a S&W Top Break revolver. The bottom of the butt, rear face of the cylinder, underside of the barrel latch, and on the barrel up inside the recess cut for the latch.


Underside of barrel latch:





In order to see the SN on the barrel you have to push the latch up out of the way to see where it is hidden:





Matching Serial Numbers in those four places means the gun left the factory with those four parts in place. Missing or mismatched Serial Numbers in those places is a pretty good indication the gun had some parts replaced at some point. Parts like triggers and hammers do not bear serial numbers. Since these guns are over 100 years old it is anybody's guess if those parts may have been replaced at some point.

P.S. Notice the firing pin strikes on my spent brass are clearly off center, as is my firing pin protruding through the frame. Not a problem.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Take a peek at Gunbroker auction #  278031658 

[freedomlives]

I just can't win!  Switched to another brand of non-magnum primers (Sellier & Bellot), and it solved the piercing problem.  Unfortunately now, every other cartridge wasn't firing on the first hammer strike!

I really do think that my hammer is hitting too far off center though.  If seems like yours, Driftwood, is a bit closer to the middle than mine is, so it is still hitting the center of the anvil in the primer, if not dead on.  Looking at mine, and the size of the anvil in the primer, I am thinking now that the hammer is totally missing the center of the primer.  Since the brass in these S&B primers is harder, then it is firing only on the first strike when the hammer is lined up with one of the three "legs" of the anvil.

I guess ultimately I've got to do something about the hammer's shape, or maybe look for a spare hammer from somewhere.

Thanks for all the suggestions, and also photos of how things should look!

But wow do I love shooting the thing!  It has such a nice, satisfying BOOM when you shoot it and yet hardly any recoil.