Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Uberti, Pietta and other SAA Clones => Topic started by: jasonfb123 on July 04, 2015, 07:22:14 PM
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So my pop left me a SAA clone he bought used many years ago. It had a broken pawl( the cylinder advancing thingy) and I had it repaired at a local gunsmith. The smith did a terrific job and it runs an empty cylinder and a loaded cylinder like a champ, no issues. The problem arises as one fires it. The first round or two run fine. Then the fired cases begin to really drag through the gun as they reach the 4 or 5 o'clock position. It looks like the primers are running into the back plate thing. It does this with factory 45 colt as well as light reloads in Starline brass with properly seated primers. I am at a loss as to what would be causing this but after firing, the primers have drag marks on them. At least I know why the pawl originally broke. Any ideas on a fix? Thanks.
The gun is an old FAP imported by Brolin Arms of Pomona, Ca.
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Well, in all honesty, they're are a bunch of us who could give you a swell WAG (Military acronymm = Wild A$$ guess). All would be just that. A Guess. I personally would have to see the gun cycle to get specific. But (WAG coming) my first look would be at the firing pin hole in the recoil shield to see if it's "puckered" and sporting burrs that catch the primer as it backs out of the case upon firing.
The problem is going to be at, or down stream from the firing pin hole. the frame may also be out of square and the head space decreases at the bottom of the recoil shield.
If your not some familiar with the function of a SA type handgun, you have another visit to a gunsmith in your future.
Good Luck!!
Coffinmaker
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I knew somebody would know :) Thank you for your reply.
How does one correct pucker?
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Does it have a burr at the firing pin hole? Stone it down flat. Avoid dry-firing the gun without snap caps since that can cause the burr.
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It does seem to have a bit of a burr. I will stone it flatand test fire this week.
Thanks.
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By any chance are the cases a bit sticky to eject?
(Sounds like the primers are backing out, but not
re-seating because the case is neither slipping back
under low(er) pressure, nor stretching enough at
high pressure.
Try lubricating (oiling) the cases and run a cylinder-full to test.
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Well heck.
I took the burr off and cleaned and lubed the thing very well, and NOW it's worse. As soon as the first fired case rotated past 4 o'clock it jammed up good. The primer is bulged out too far after the firing pin strikes it. I am not an expert, but the firing pin "seems" very long and it seems like it protrudes thru the firing pin hole too far. Is that a condition that can occur over time? The gun used to fire fine.
Very odd.
Thanks for looking,
JB
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Again, have you lubed the cases to see/ensure that they can back
up enough to re-seat the primer as they fire?
ALL primers back out upon ignition. It's only when the case slams
back from pressure buildup that the primers seat flush again.
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Is it doing it still with factory loads or the light reloads? What you are describing is classic "load is too light". But if it is still doing it with factory ammo, then it is something with the gun. No, the firing pin sticking "too far forward" should not cause an issue, unless it is piercing the primer.
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Check the loading gate screw to see that it is not loose and the gate interfering with rotation.
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Yes, lubed up well. Yes, factory ammo (Walmart Winchester 45 Colt.)
So I went once more into the shop to check the loading gate (which is where the primers hang) and it is flush with the frame, it's just the first thing the fired cases come into contact with. And I decide to take the cylinder out and load the fired cases into it to see if any are proud and guess what I see? Daylight! THRU about half of the primers. I am going to try and attach a photo.
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So the big question is, now what? It does it with reloads and factory ammo.
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Welp, your firing pin ain't too short there feller!! (This is where you go brag to the missus)
I'd say make sure the pin is rounded on the end and not sharp or "square cornered"/ reduce the length of the firing pin being sure to put the same shape (roundness found ) on the end . Also, check the head space to see if it is out of spec.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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Firing pin is waaaaaaay too long then.
Can you measure how much it protrudes from the frame when fully forward?
It should be no more than a regular paper clip's (~0.030") diameter.
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(http://i58.tinypic.com/2d0xqfo.jpg)
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First, if that picture is of your gun, the pin is squared-off and probably sharp-edged. The question is, what kind of firing pin does this gun have (based on its age)? When you cock the hammer, is the firing pin fixed solid in the hammer and the pin is conical shaped? Or does the firing pin float (you can easily wiggle it), and the shape is sort of curved from the widest part to the tip? How old is the gun? Can you give us a rough serial number range? That will help determine what type of firing pin the gun should have. If someone changed the firing pin (and maybe the hammer) to the more modern type but didn't change the firing pin bushing in the frame, then that could be the problem. OTOH, it may be that the hole in the bushing has become enlarged over use. If that's the case, the bushing will probably need to be replaced or re-bushed, with a smaller hole and the correct shape from the backside of the bushing. Regardless, I think you need to consult a 'smith who is really familiar with Colt's Single Actions. The fixes aren't that difficult, but you need to know your Colt's.
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No, the pin is round.
It's the pic optics that looks square.
(and this pic is that of my Taylor's Smokewagon -- the sweetest SAA I've ever handled)
I posted it to see if the OP could compare it w/ his own, in which the symptoms (multiple pierced primers) might point to an overly long firing pin protruding from the shield face.
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Are you shooting super light "mouse fart" handloads in this?
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Mehavey,
That's a nice gun, I have an El Patron Competition that is my carry gun.
They can be made into quite a race gun ( hafta ditch them wire springs though!!)!! I fitted a blackhawk 45acp cyl to mine and mad it a convertible!!
Fun gun for sure!!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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Enlarging your photograph of the cases in the cylinder, I see two issues. First issue is your firing pin may be too long and too pointy, and may need to be stoned back just a hair and blunted just a touch.
Second, it would appear the primer centers are flowing back into the firing pin hole in the Recoil Shield. I am thinking the hole may be enlarged from being peened by the firing pin. When you stone it flat, this enlarges the firing pin hole. Then, depending on your end shake and head space, the raised area on the primers is hanging up as the cylinder rotates.
"IF" (I'm not looking at your gun) this is the case, the only permanent fix is to have a hardened bushing installed in the recoil shield that is properly fit to the firing pin. Or, the firing pin hole can in some cases be welded up, dressed flat and re-drilled. You'd really need someone who truly knows what they are doing.
Coffinmaker
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Yeah, that's what I figured. Off to the smithy she goes. Any good ones in Los Angeles/ San Gabriel Valley?
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I'm not seeing the brass flow into the pin channel mention above.
What I AM seeing is punctured primers due to long firing pin.
You sure you don't want to simply file that pin down a bit (down
to 0.030" protrusion) before having to ship if off to a gunsmith ?
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I could I guess. It's the floating kind that is held in with a pin so if I muck it up I can install a new one. It's just that the gun used to work fine and it is not likely the firing pin grew is it? I'll probably still take some 400 grit to it and see what happens.
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Stop by your local hardware/sporting goods. A small diamond stone, used for sharpening fish hooks can work wonders. Something else I noticed, your primers show scratch marks from dragging on something. I don't think those cases are in the cylinder "as fired??" I'm also thinking, your primers are backing out and not being completely re-seated in the case. Perhaps too light a load?? Primers should be nice and smooth, with no scratches.
Coffinmaker
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The OP has so far refrained from divulging the load he I shooting which is paramount to solving this. ???
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The OP has so far refrained from divulging the load he I shooting which is paramount to solving this. ???
He said earlier in the thread he is shooting factory Winchester 45 Colt ammo from Walmart.
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From an earlier post:
Factory ammo (Walmart Winchester 45 Colt.)
CC Griff
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So far it does it with ALL loads. I've tried super light cowboy reloads to factory Winchester from Wally World. If it shoots a lead bullet, the primers drag.
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He said earlier in the thread he is shooting factory Winchester 45 Colt ammo from Walmart.
My apology, I missed that. Duh! :-[
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My final suggestions, prior to turning it into slag. Head space and cylinder throats. Excessive head space can leave you with backed out primers. Chamber throats too small for the bullet and cause primers to back out.
Coffinmaker
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...Chamber throats too small for the bullet and cause primers to back out...
Huh? Never heard that one.
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Looks and sounds like primer flow into the firing pin hole. Uberti does not use a firing pin bushing and sometimes the heat treating is not perfect and the firing pin hole will crater or if it was burred and stoned the hole becomes to big. As noted, the only solution is to fix the firing pin hole. Eiither by welding and redrilling the hole or the better solution, install a firing pin bushing.
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When looking at the pic, I didn't see any sharp cratering/flow.
What I did see was pierced primers -- a lot of them.
While continued shooting would (did?) result in flame-jet
burning/expansionof the pin channel, I'd again try stoning the
firing pin to normal dimensions before going for major surgery.
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When looking at the pic, I didn't see any sharp cratering/flow.
What I did see was pierced primers -- a lot of them.
While continued shooting would (did?) result in flame-jet
burning/expansionof the pin channel, I'd again try stoning the
firing pin to normal dimensions before going for major surgery.
Bottom line is the OP needs to take the gun to someone that knows what he is doing before doing anything else and further damaging the gun.
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Let's go to the heart of the matter:
Does the firing pin protrude more than the
diameter of a common paperclip ? (0.030")
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Probably the firing pin hole was too big before, and after stoning it got worse. Possibly excessive headspace as well, as mentioned. But, regarding the firing pin - I don't think an overly long firing pin necessarily will pierce primers. I have a 2nd Gen Colt .45 that has NO daylight visible between the firing pin and the rear of the cylinder, when viewed like the photo above. Certainly more protrusion than .030. Has a very blunt firing pin tip. Never a pierced primer. I think it happens more with a sharp firing pin, and worse with a heavy spring.
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Standard firing pin protrusion is around .055. .030 often gives misfires. I had to replace some Ruger firing pins that only stuck out .030.
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You are correct. That Smokewagon SAA pictured above
measures exactly 0.55" projection from the shield face.
:o
Has the OP stated what his pin measures out to be as yet ?
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Hi Abilene,
Yep. A millisecond (nanosecond) spike in chamber pressure caused by too small chamber throat can cause primer backout if there is excess head space, and with a light load, the case doesn't reseat the primer.
However, on this gun, with some deformation of the primer face, extending into the firing pin hole, I agree with Pettifogger. the gun needs to go to someone who/whom knows what he/she is doing. An 030 firing pin protrusion is too short and stoning back to that dimension will likely result in miss-fire.
If the firing pin is a mite sharp, and an OEM Main Spring is is use, pierced primers are almost guaranteed. This gun is most likely to need a hardened firing pin bushing installed to correct the hole in the recoil shield. The firing pin shouldn't need more than just a little "blunting"k and I'd suggest changing to an after-market Main Spring.
Coffinmaker
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Perhaps this is the time to request photos of the recoil shield?
With focus on the firing pin hole.
My best,
Blair
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Why?? If the OP is less than skilled, and cannot resolve the problem, why drag out the Q & A process to no resolution. Tiz time for a visit
to the Smithy. You know, one of those people with the knowledge, tools and skills to fix it.
Coffinmaker
PS: Two pages of SWAGs, the problem isn't resolve and none of us can fix it over the wire. Pointless to drag out the inevitable.
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Perhaps, a request for photos earlier in this thread would not have required "Two pages SWAGs" Without a solution to the OP's original question.
How does that do for "why??"
My best,
Blair
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Nah. This one is still gonna take a trip to the Smithy. Lil late me thinks, at this point. Of course, our continued speculation does give us something to do.
Coffinmaker
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I would check gap between cylinder and barrel forcing cone. If it is too tigth, the gun will jam when firing as the cylinder will suffer a small dillatation form heat. It should have at least 0,1mm of gap or it wont work properly.
printing paper is about 0,1mm and should run free between cylinder and cone when the hammer is atfull cock and loaded with empty cases..
It is easy to solve with a fine file with some touches in the forcing cone just keeping it well flat over it and wont affect accuracy.
It is the way they do the final fitting sometimes in the factory.
In my experiencie 0.15 mm works well.
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Was this problem ever resolved. I had Navy Arms Uberti 1875 Remington that backed out the primers in 2 out of six cylinders, right out of the box. The normal fix is replacement recoil shield, but the Uberti doesn't have one. I had to send it back to Navy Arms, and they finally replaced it, with a EMF 1875. As I remember I thought the Frame was off, base pin holes were off, since 2 chambers in the cylinder were not the same after removing the cylinder and putting it back in order to clear the jam. Navy Arms never explained what was wrong, even after three inquiries.
Please post the result
Thanks
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Was this problem ever resolved. I had Navy Arms Uberti 1875 Remington that backed out the primers in 2 out of six cylinders, right out of the box. The normal fix is replacement recoil shield, but the Uberti doesn't have one...
No it's not. The "normal" is to ask about the ammo. Light loads? As well measure & examine the FP. Then I would look at the chambers and indicate them to see if only two chambers were causing this or is it happening at random in all chambers, i.e., ammo of FP related.
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My experience with eyetalian guns is that the cylinder bushing often does not protrude far enough forward to ensure a proper cylinder gap once the gun is put into action. As rounds are fired, and the primers back out, the cylinder is gradually forced forward. If the cylinder bushing is not properly fitted, the front of the cylinder contacts the back of the barrel and the gun binds up in just the way you are describing. The solution is to properly shim the cylinder bushing so that proper cylinder gap is maintained while firing. Bushing shims are available from: http://michigancenteroutdoors.com/cylinder_shims.html#S9 Strongly suggest you get the multipack as there is wide variation is the slop on these guns. One of my pistols required a .002 shim to operate consistently and one required a .004 shim in order to work. Buy the variety pack.
You can confirm the problem by using a feeler gauge to measure the cylinder gap while you push the cylinder forward as far as you can. You'll probably find there is zero gap when the cylinder is pushed forward in this way. This won't give you any information about the proper shim size, however. Once you've confirmed that the cylinder is, in fact, "bottoming out" on the barrel, you can hold the cylinder forward and try to gauge the remaining gap between the bushing and the frame. It is tough to do this. Trial and error with various shim thicknesses was required for me to arrive at an harmonious solution. That's where the variety pack comes in.
Alternatively, if the pawl is not properly retracting after each cycle, it will begin to drag on the ratchet. Be sure the channel the pawl runs in is perfectly clean (gun must be disassembled for this) and that there is sufficient clearance between the pawl and the three walls of the channel that it runs in.
My money, however, is on problem one -- given my experience with these guns.
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Well it has been over a year since the OP started this thread, and these are his only posts on Cascity. I guess we'll never find out what exactly was wrong with his gun.