1860 Henry 44 henry Flat Conversion: Update.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I finally got to the range to shoot my Henry that I converted from 45LC to 44 Henry Flat(or 44 Rem/Colt C.F. w/modified nose bullet).
It was so hot yesterday morning that i didn't shoot much, but I didn't really have too. The Henry shoots just like it did with the 45LC chambering.

I did notice that the bbl gets a lot hotter when shooting Holy Black ten shots in a row. I shot 30 shots of Once Fired(or more) 44 Colt brass with the Old West Moulds 248 Grn Mod nose bullet over 28 grns FFG. Groupings were the same as when in 45LC.

I had 3 cases hang up half way out of the chamber. I believe these 3 to be bullets that were not crimped very well as I did notice that 3 (or more) of the cartridges had bullets that would turn in the case when i was lubing them. I should have re-crimped these but I didn't. I did get some blow back, but nothing like I expected. Mostly like the discoloration of the brass like the 45 lC's with Smokeyless.

I had put too much olive oil in the works and this got very dirty quickly, but nothing slowed down, just really soft black goo. I lubed the cartridges with bore butter the night before so I'd have some outside lube on them. Learned to NOT put too much olive oil in the works and that the lube on the bullets is enough to keep the fouling soft.

I'm tickled with my conversion and am going to modify a carrier so I can shoot the 44 Russian brass and the OWM bullets. I'm also going to try their 210 Grn Outside lubed bullets. in this and the 44 Colt Cases as well. This bullet has only one lube grove on it and it'll need the nose flattened as eall, but it is closer to the original 44 Henry Flat bullet shape.



The rifle cleaned up really well afterwards.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I'm tickled with my conversion and am going to modify a carrier so I can shoot the 44 Russian brass and the OWM bullets.

Are you going to put a spring in the carier to limit how far back the cartridge can go or try beveling the front of the carrier to push the one in the magazine forward from a more rearward position? Or do you have some other cool idea?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I haven't decided what to do yet.
If one puts in a spring to limit how far back a cartridge is placed in the carrier, then that limits the number of cartridges in the magazine. To me, more is always better. By modifying the angle of the carrier then the cartridge is in proper position. You then can load 15.

I'd like to see pictures of the carrier with the spring arrangement. I also wonder how many cartridges one can load in the magazine with the spring arrangement. If it is less than 15 like the original, I would want to modify the angle on the carrier instead. Not that I'll always want to load 15, but it sure would be neat to be able to do it if I wanted too.

I have pictures here of a carrier that was converted to 44 Colt I believe(Long Johns Wolf's). His gunsmith modified the angle to load shorter cartridges.

That's a project for a cold winters night.

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[Hell-Er High Water]

Charlie,

The carrier with the spring cartridge retainer doesn't change the magazine capacity.  All it does is limit the rearward travel of the rearmost cartridge in the magazine to the point where the spring loaded cartridge stop keeps the nose of the bullet in the carrier flush with the front edge of the carrier.

I have one in in my Cimarron M'73 in 44 Special that I shoot 44 Russian loads in.  It was actually designed for shooting loads with A.J.'s Cowboy 45 Special brass in a 45 Colt rifle.  The 44 Russian and the Cowboy 45 Special loads are so similar in dimensions that it works with either.

Hap at The Smith Shop is the supplier of this replacement carrier.  He has been out for surgery but is now back to work on a part time basis so you might check with him on availability of a carrier.

Just some info that you might want to look into.

HHW

[Marshal Will Wingam]

If one puts in a spring to limit how far back a cartridge is placed in the carrier, then that limits the number of cartridges in the magazine. To me, more is always better. By modifying the angle of the carrier then the cartridge is in proper position. You then can load 15.

I'd like to see pictures of the carrier with the spring arrangement. I also wonder how many cartridges one can load in the magazine with the spring arrangement. If it is less than 15 like the original, I would want to modify the angle on the carrier instead. Not that I'll always want to load 15, but it sure would be neat to be able to do it if I wanted too.

A spring wouldn't change the magazine it only limits how far the cartridge goes into the carrier. Talk to Adirondack Jack, he has a 'smith that modifies them for his C45S rounds.

[Dusty Morningwood]

A spring wouldn't change the magazine it only limits how far the cartridge goes into the carrier. Talk to Adirondack Jack, he has a 'smith that modifies them for his C45S rounds.

Wonder what that costs?  Want to modify my 66 and Henry to shoot .44 Russian.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

It will not change the Magazine count, but it will allow for one in the carrier and 14 in the magazine. one of those 14 will partially be inside the carrier, hence the need to change the angle, cause the cartridge will hang up on the flat(if you can call the trough a flat) just past the angle. I'm guessing that the spring pushes the cartridge to the forward face of the carrier(even with the carrier face), which WILL limit the number in the mag to less than 14.

My 15 count is with one in the carrier. 
IF I use the .88 Lgth of brass that the Henry 44 Flat used, with this bullet I can get 15 in the Magazine and none in the carrier.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Halfway...
You want to go with the modified angle in the carrier...forget about the carrier with the spring...If you're like me you want to keep your rifle as authentic as possible...and that was never an option on the original Henry rifles. Those AJ 45 special loads is something that never existed and was never around pre 1900. If I'm correct they are based on a 45 acp case and I still don't understand why anyone would want to use them??

Bill

[Coffinmaker]

Almost, but not quite just exactly.  The .45 Cowboy Special AJ developed is based on the "internal" capacity of a .45 ACP.  The round is actually about the same as a .44 Russian.  It was actually developed to reduce powder capacity and recoil in handguns using 777.  The idea to try it in rifles came later. 
The first rifle to function with the round was a modified Marlin.  Carrier blocks were then prototyped to run in toggle link rifles.  It's basically no different in concept than setting up a rifle to run .44 Russian to get closer to "authentic."  It was just done for a different reason.  Neat cartridge for the BP shooter who wants to reduce recoil.

Coffinmaker

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Almost, but not quite just exactly.  The .45 Cowboy Special AJ developed is based on the "internal" capacity of a .45 ACP.  The round is actually about the same as a .44 Russian.  It was actually developed to reduce powder capacity and recoil in handguns using 777.  The idea to try it in rifles came later. 
The first rifle to function with the round was a modified Marlin.  Carrier blocks were then prototyped to run in toggle link rifles.  It's basically no different in concept than setting up a rifle to run .44 Russian to get closer to "authentic."  It was just done for a different reason.  Neat cartridge for the BP shooter who wants to reduce recoil.

Coffinmaker

You're right.....just another gamer load.

OCB

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Yep Changing the angle is the way I'll go.
I'm going to stick with the 44 Russian case when I get there. I only have a handful right now. Wouldn't ya know I just gave away about 200 not six months ago.

Right now I'm sticking with the 44 Colt brass cause I have a bunch of it and my two Original Remy Conversion use it and won't chamber the 44 Russian due to the Rim Dia. and I don't want to "fix" the originals to shoot the 44 Russian brass.

I may have to shoot two different cartridges anyway when I shoot my Original Rogers & Spencer 44 Henry R.F. Conversion. IF I can gather enough of those 44 Henry R.F. cases from Dixie. They are really expensive at $4.50 ea. or 6 for $24.00 YEOUCH!. They will not accept the OWM heeled bullet as .451 Dia balls are called for.

I don't want to "Fix" this one either. If I decide to shoot it as C.F. Due to the way the recoil shield is made( and captured floating firing pin) and the Frame is milled I'll make a new recoil shield, gate and firing pin . A project for later. Even the 44 Henry C.F. for original chambers is $1.10 ea. at Buffalo arms is a bit steep, but they chamber perfectly in the R & S. The OWM heeled bullet will fit if the heel is modified to a smaller Dia.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Yep Changing the angle is the way I'll go.

That is by far the simplest mod. Should be interesting to see how it works. How much shorter a round is it than a Schofield?

[Hoof Hearted]

Charlie

Quick question:

Are you crimping that heel base bullet? If so what method are you using?

Thanks
Hoofhearted