1873 Uberti in 44 mag. + toggle-link strength

[savage99t]

I know I'm new to this site but definiatly not new to guns,  just wondering if any of you guys have read Oliver Winchesters reply to someone asking about the strength of the 1876 Winchester?  best I remember it took like 2800 grains of lead and a big overload of powder to actually blow up the gun.   I wouldn't exactly call that weak and I have really been wondering were all the weak stories come from other than someone repeating what someone else said kind of like the Italian Carcano stories spread around about it being weak which has been proved to be miss guided urban myth.   Now I wouldn't bet my Chaparral is as strong as an original due to all the sloppy tolerances but the metal the pieces are made out of may well be stonger than the original steel Winchester used in the 1800's.  As to what the last poster said you're definiatly right Uberti knows for sure.  I have no doubt they have done blow up tests on the 1876 and 1873 with all the product liability suits out there.   

[Joe Lansing]

   Your observation is well taken and has been discussed before, but the truth is that all of our deductive reasoning is just that until someone publishes or otherwise reveals the hard test data. I for one believe the toggle actions are stronger than previously supposed, but I'm not prepared to bet my life....or someone else's on that belief....at least not until the data and facts come in.               

                                                                  J.L.

[Hobie]

Has anyone compared the SAAMI max CUP for .357 Mag and .44 Mag?  It is 48.9K for the .357 Mag and 41.9K for the .44 Mag

But the breach thrust isn't the same as the .357 Mag has a much smaller case head..

[Advertising]

[FriscoCounty]

But the breach thrust isn't the same as the .357 Mag has a much smaller case head..

Fair enough. 

The Cylinder size on the .357 is .359 in and on the .44 it is .4569 in.  Don't want to use the breech face as there is no pressure being generated on the portion of the breech face outside of the cylinder.  That portion of the breech face merely serves to dissipate some of the pressure. 

Switching from CUP to PSI, the .357 generates a max avg pressure of 35,000 PSI and the .44 a max avg pressure of 36,000 PSI.  That yields a max pressure of 3,949 lbs and 5,902 lbs respectively.  So, about 1/3 more.

For a 180 and 240 grain bullet, respectively, that yields 4.98 and 7.58 Ns and 1,062 and 1,849 joules.

[Hobie]

Fair enough. 

The Cylinder size on the .357 is .359 in and on the .44 it is .4569 in.  Don't want to use the breech face as there is no pressure being generated on the portion of the breech face outside of the cylinder.  That portion of the breech face merely serves to dissipate some of the pressure. 

Switching from CUP to PSI, the .357 generates a max avg pressure of 35,000 PSI and the .44 a max avg pressure of 36,000 PSI.  That yields a max pressure of 3,949 lbs and 5,902 lbs respectively.  So, about 1/3 more.

For a 180 and 240 grain bullet, respectively, that yields 4.98 and 7.58 Ns and 1,062 and 1,849 joules.

Thanks for doing some math.  I didn't check behind you as I know that in any "case" it is close enough to illustrate the point. 

Now, how did Uberti manage to convince themselves to put a .44 Mag in a '73? 

[McLernon]

Somewhere I read of a test that old Winchester carried out on the 76............cannot remember the details but the strength of the action was very high. Is it as strong as a 95 .....NO......but maybe someone can post the details of the test???


Mc

[Grizzly Adams]

Somewhere I read of a test that old Winchester carried out on the 76............cannot remember the details but the strength of the action was very high. Is it as strong as a 95 .....NO......but maybe someone can post the details of the test???


Mc

Bill Hockett wrote the test up in this article.  By the way, it's in the "Useful Links" thread.

http://outlawswinchesters.websitemaker.nl/1873/1275048

[FriscoCounty]

Now, how did Uberti manage to convince themselves to put a .44 Mag in a '73? 

Once you decide to do .44 Special, .44 Magnum is a natural progression as some states allow it for hunting.  Even at 36,000 PSI for the .44 Magnum, that is still less than the pressure generated by modern rifle loads.  The .30-30 generates  42,000, the .303 British generates 49,000, the .308 Winchester generates 62,000, and the .223 Rem generates 55,000 PSI. 

[Buck Stinson]

Yes, but the point being, should or could a .44mag load be fired safely in a toggle link action?  I don't care who made the gun, it would be a dangerous attempt in my opinion. 

[Martini450]

I can't imagine that Uberti would sell a rifle that is remotely likely to blow up when fired.  Should be interesting to see if and/or how they've strengthened the basic toggle link action.  From everything I've ever read, the weak part of the design is the toggle pins; maybe they've made them bigger and of higher strength steel.  In my opinion, one potential danger is that some owners of the same model in 44-40 (of which I am one) may make the erroneous assumption that it's okay to hotrod loads for their rifles, such as loads listed for the 1892 Winchester, based on the fact that the same model is available in 44 mag.

[Trailrider]

I can't imagine that Uberti would sell a rifle that is remotely likely to blow up when fired.  Should be interesting to see if and/or how they've strengthened the basic toggle link action.  From everything I've ever read, the weak part of the design is the toggle pins; maybe they've made them bigger and of higher strength steel.  In my opinion, one potential danger is that some owners of the same model in 44-40 (of which I am one) may make the erroneous assumption that it's okay to hotrod loads for their rifles, such as loads listed for the 1892 Winchester, based on the fact that the same model is available in 44 mag.

It may be that Uberti has beefed up or used a stronger alloy in the .44 Magnum versions of their '73's.  If they are fitting the ends of the links to the recoil shoulders in the receiver and the breechblock PROPERLY, the pins really don't take much recoil.  If the pins are taking the brunt of the recoil, they may be using a larger diameter pin, or better alloy/heat treatment.

So far as heating up .44-40 loads to equal the .44 Magnum SAAMI specs, I would certainly caution AGAINST IT!   In the first place, the .44-40 has a larger base diameter than the Maggie case, resulting in greater backthrust on the bolt and pins, shoulders, etc., if the two are loaded to equal pressures.  Second, the .44-40 brass is usually thinner than the .44 Magnum cases, which means the .44-40 is more sensitive to pressure.

The .44-40 has greater internal volume than the .44 Magnum case, so it takes about 7 percent more powder to get the same velocities from a .44-40 as in the Maggie, using the same bullet and Hodgdon's Universal powder.  Loaded to velocites that are SASS-legal, you shouldn't have any trouble duplicating the velocities of the two cartridges.  But I would NOT recommend trying to "hotrod" the .44-40 Uberti-made or original Winchesters, for that matter.  Save those Winchester Hi Velocity loads for the '92's, as Winchester advertised back in the 1920's!!!

[Martini450]

I hope my post didn't give the impression that I would approve of such loading practices.  On the contrary, I agree with everything you said, and would go even further by saying I wouldn't even use the hot loads listed for the 1892 in and 1892 either.  The '92 action is certainly strong enough, but the case is not.  I've not loaded for a '92 myself, but have read that the hotter loads in 44-40, fired in the '92 action, have resulted in case separations in as little as two loadings. 

My point is that there may be people out there that are less cautious then they should be that will assume that, since the apparently same rifle is available in 44 mag, they can jack up their 44-40 loads.  In my opinion, this would be a dangerous mistake to make.  For myself, if I want a 44 magnum, I'll buy a 44 magnum.  My 44-40 does exactly what it's supposed to with reasonable loads.

[Trailrider]

I hope my post didn't give the impression that I would approve of such loading practices.  On the contrary, I agree with everything you said, and would go even further by saying I wouldn't even use the hot loads listed for the 1892 in and 1892 either.  The '92 action is certainly strong enough, but the case is not.  I've not loaded for a '92 myself, but have read that the hotter loads in 44-40, fired in the '92 action, have resulted in case separations in as little as two loadings. 

My point is that there may be people out there that are less cautious then they should be that will assume that, since the apparently same rifle is available in 44 mag, they can jack up their 44-40 loads.  In my opinion, this would be a dangerous mistake to make.  For myself, if I want a 44 magnum, I'll buy a 44 magnum.  My 44-40 does exactly what it's supposed to with reasonable loads.

Amen, Pard! Amen!

[Grapeshot]

Since joining this forum, and reading others, I keep hearing about the inherent weakness of the toggle-link action in the 73 + 76.
If it is so weak, how can Uberti chamber a 73 in the 44 mag. Your thoughts...

"The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

 
  
 
  I had to go to one of the earlier posts in this forum to find this.  One of our other members posted this a couple of years ago.[/size]

[Joe Lansing]

    This debate reminds me of the ancient Greek Philosophers debating "how many teeth a horse has" without considering actually looking in a horses mouth and counting the teeth. With this in mind, I "went to the horses mouth" and E-mailed Uberti in Italy.
    I asked them if they made the 44mag. '73 stronger, or if they found the action strong enough as is. I also asked what the proof pressures are for the 44mag. as well as the 44-40.
    As soon as I get a reply I will post their response.

                                                       J.L.

[Martini450]

Good call.  I had a conversation with the 'smith at Taylor's about this about a month ago, and at that point they didn't know any more than any of us.  Don't know when they'll be getting any in inventory, but when they do I want to make the drive out there to look at one.  Maybe he'd be willing to take the side plate off of one for a peak. 

I'll still be sticking to my mild 44-40 loads regardless of what Uberti says because of the strength limitations of the brass, but it would be nice to hear what they have to say. 

[Grizzly Adams]

Can't remember where I read it, but I believe Harve Curry e-mailed them regarding this, and was told that the hardness of the receiver has been increased, and that's why it is only available in the blue finish.  The rest of the rifle is the same.   

[Qball]

Any more hard facts in this topic?

[Grizzly Adams]

I've heard nothing more on this topic.    However, the more I think about the more I like the idea.  An 1873 that one could shoot 44 special in for CAS and also use 44 mag in for a saddle gun does have appeal!

Now, maybe that will stir up the dust a bit!

[Martini450]

Can't remember where I read it, but I believe Harve Curry e-mailed them regarding this, and was told that the hardness of the receiver has been increased, and that's why it is only available in the blue finish.  The rest of the rifle is the same.   

I think I found where you read this. 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?s=8609096ff3b528ac3e444d87efc6856e&t=21663

Someone on that forum emailed Uberti's customer service about this, and got the following reply:

"Bill,
Sorry, with this gun the hardness level of the metal has been increased.
That is why it is only offered in a blue case hardened finish. The
action is the same as the other calibers.

Thank you,
Customer Service

RE: 1873 Win copy 44 magnum"

Comforting to know that the toggle link action is probably stronger than we've all thought, but I'd still like to see one of these with the side plates off.