Schofield Uberti pitting from American Pioneer WTH!!

[Doug.38PR]

I am engraged.  First my vaquero from pyrodex and now my schofield from American Pioneer.   Both guns THOROUGHLY cleaned, especially the barrels with hot tap water until 0 residue and patches were clean.   Dried and oiled with Hoppe’s 9.

I don’t get it.   I don’t think the pitting is that bad, it may be just a trick of the eye as i don’t see it after brass brushing and bristle snaking it out a jilliom times.   But even the chambers had this brown/red looking rusty goo built up here and there.  Even the cylinder was a tad stiff.  Surface oil was still good.  Gun had been sitting in box in safe for like 8 months

[Navy Six]

I continue to be surprised at the different results people get using the same products. 99.9% of my shooting is with blackpowder and I am pretty anal about cleaning. I have tried most of the cleaning/preservative products out there. One in particular is highly recommended for this purpose (a mixture of three ingredients--won't name it as I don't want to start a fight on Father's Day!). I start getting rust in about an hour if it's left on the gun. If I use the Ballistol/water mix this doesn't happen.
 Doug, don't blame you for being upset. Hope the mess cleans up.

[Coffinmaker]

My personal alarm bells go off at "sitting in a box in the safe for 8 months.  My second bell goes off with "Hobbs."  Trying not to be ignorant, what is "Hobbs??"  I've personally never heard of it.

8 months in a box in the safe.  To me, this means no air circulation.  With no air circulation, any accumulation of moisture will simply stay on what ever is in the box in the safe.  The corrosion you see may well not be related to your use of APP.  APP in and of itself is not  terribly corrosive.  However, if left alone long enough it will promote corrosion and will trap moisture which will cause oxidation (rust).

Pyrodex on the other hand ..... IS a corrosive agent all by itself.  Which I see you have already unfortunately discovered.

Since I don't know your specific atmospheric conditions and other stuff pertaining to you specifically, I can't jump up and give you an immediate and effective solution.  Personally, I shoot nothing but APP anymore although I do plan to dabble in Black MZ soon.  After shooting, it is often days before I clean guns (I'm lazy) and I live in a climate controlled environment.  I fill my shop sink with hot water and some Dawn dish soap (Optional).  I rinse the guns in hot water and dry thoroughly.  After drying, I swab the chambers and bore with Mobil 1 synthetic oil.  I store all of em on open shelves in the safe with the safe door open most of the time.  Nothing rusts.  The only rust I have had a problem with was when I left a pair of guns in my transport Pommel Holsters for an entire three day shoot.  I was not happy and no longer own those Pommel Holsters.  Good Luck in your Quest

[Advertising]

[Doug.38PR]

My personal alarm bells go off at "sitting in a box in the safe for 8 months.  My second bell goes off with "Hobbs."  Trying not to be ignorant, what is "Hobbs??"  I've personally never heard of it.

8 months in a box in the safe.  To me, this means no air circulation.  With no air circulation, any accumulation of moisture will simply stay on what ever is in the box in the safe.  The corrosion you see may well not be related to your use of APP.  APP in and of itself is not  terribly corrosive.  However, if left alone long enough it will promote corrosion and will trap moisture which will cause oxidation (rust).

Pyrodex on the other hand ..... IS a corrosive agent all by itself.  Which I see you have already unfortunately discovered.

Since I don't know your specific atmospheric conditions and other stuff pertaining to you specifically, I can't jump up and give you an immediate and effective solution.  Personally, I shoot nothing but APP anymore although I do plan to dabble in Black MZ soon.  After shooting, it is often days before I clean guns (I'm lazy) and I live in a climate controlled environment.  I fill my shop sink with hot water and some Dawn dish soap (Optional).  I rinse the guns in hot water and dry thoroughly.  After drying, I swab the chambers and bore with Mobil 1 synthetic oil.  I store all of em on open shelves in the safe with the safe door open most of the time.  Nothing rusts.  The only rust I have had a problem with was when I left a pair of guns in my transport Pommel Holsters for an entire three day shoot.  I was not happy and no longer own those Pommel Holsters.  Good Luck in your Quest

Sorry:  HOPPE’S Number 9.   

The safe is inside an AC house and even has a Remington dehumidifier in it.   I never dreamed it being in the original box with a good coat of gun oil in and out would be a problem. 

[Doug.38PR]

I continue to be surprised at the different results people get using the same products. 99.9% of my shooting is with blackpowder and I am pretty anal about cleaning. I have tried most of the cleaning/preservative products out there. One in particular is highly recommended for this purpose (a mixture of three ingredients--won't name it as I don't want to start a fight on Father's Day!). I start getting rust in about an hour if it's left on the gun. If I use the Ballistol/water mix this doesn't happen.
 Doug, don't blame you for being upset. Hope the mess cleans up.

I used hot water from the tap.  I’ve heard ballistol is great (never seen it in SG store) but our ancestors didn’t have it or this problem with BP. 

[Bunk]

sorry but Hoppes's #9 is a solvent for smokes-somewhat-less and copper fouling. It is not a product for Black Powder residue or a preservative oil. Neither is WD40. There are a dozen different gun oils on the market just pick one. If you do shoot the true Gun Powder Ballistol is your best bet. That is all I use cleaning my Black gun Powder guns and they don't rust.
At least that is my experience. YMMV
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

AND ... WE HAVE A WINNER !!!

PLUS ONE to Bunk !!

Straight up and Undiluted!!  As Bunk pointed out, Hoppies # 9 is NOT a "Gun Oil."  It is strictly a solvent for Smokeless Powder residue.  #9 provides absolutely NO protection from corrosion nor moisture induced rust.  Neither does WD-40. WD-40 is also not a lubricant.  It (WD) only stops squeaks until it evaporates.

I use HOT water to clean and rinse because warm parts evaporate moisture quicker than cold parts.  Once the guns are clean'd I swab the chambers with Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil, any spot the need grease gets Mobil 1 Synthetic Grease.  I also have a really oily rag to wipe down the exterior.  Oily rag is oily from Mobil 1.  Hoppies has no place around BP guns.  There are other effective lubricants.  The only caveat:  BP lubricants should not be petroleum based.  Petroleum bases lubricants will form a very stubborn hard tar substance.

[Doug.38PR]

AND ... WE HAVE A WINNER !!!

PLUS ONE to Bunk !!

Straight up and Undiluted!!  As Bunk pointed out, Hoppies # 9 is NOT a "Gun Oil."  It is strictly a solvent for Smokeless Powder residue.  #9 provides absolutely NO protection from corrosion nor moisture induced rust.  Neither does WD-40. WD-40 is also not a lubricant.  It (WD) only stops squeaks until it evaporates.

I use HOT water to clean and rinse because warm parts evaporate moisture quicker than cold parts.  Once the guns are clean'd I swab the chambers with Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil, any spot the need grease gets Mobil 1 Synthetic Grease.  I also have a really oily rag to wipe down the exterior.  Oily rag is oily from Mobil 1.  Hoppies has no place around BP guns.  There are other effective lubricants.  The only caveat:  BP lubricants should not be petroleum based.  Petroleum bases lubricants will form a very stubborn hard tar substance.

So...Hoppes 9 Gun Lubrication actually CAUSED my problem?    I always conclude cleaning of all my guns with a coat of oil either Hoppes 9 or Break Free thinking I’m giving them a good coat of protection?

So would this be why gummy red/brown rusty looking substancr formes in chambers and bores and tends to leave behind blue wear or even pitting?

(I’ve had this problem worse for over 15 years with my 1851 Navy ball and cap but to a far greater degree because I didn’t use any water,  just oil gun lube, patches and paper towels)

[Dave T]

...I didn’t use any water...

With black powder and APP/Black M-Z (and maybe some other substitutes) water is your friend. The solvent of choice come cleaning time. Adding a dash of soap is optional but's favored by many because it makes water wetter. (smile)

Dave

[Doug.38PR]

With black powder and APP/Black M-Z (and maybe some other substitutes) water is your friend. The solvent of choice come cleaning time. Adding a dash of soap is optional but's favored by many because it makes water wetter. (smile)

Dave

Until i read it recommended on APP website, i always thought it best to keep water as far away from any gun as possible. 

[Drydock]

I use nothing but water on all my BP guns, then chase with ballistol.  Nothing better for BP fouling than plain water.  Militarys of the period used plain water, then lubed with whale oil.  Whale oil being hard to come by these days . . .

[Major 2]

Well... if someone would just render rosie o'Donnell down

 ...lower case intended

[Jake C]

Well... if someone would just render rosie o'Donnell down

 ...lower case intended

This made me chortle.

[August]

Well, since this hasn't been said, I'll jump in.

Black Powder is NOT corrosive.  It is hygroscopic, in that it will absorb water over time and hold that water next to the steel in firearms.  But, it is not corrosive and doesn't require immediate cleaning -- soon, but not immediate.

Substitute powders (Pyrodex, American Pioneer Powder, Black MZ, Triple 7, etc.) are all CORROSIVE.  They produce by-products during combustion that IMMEDIATELY start to corrode any metal they touch.  I have had brass and guns begin to corrode after using substitute powders by the next morning!!!!!!

So, giving, or taking advice from the perspective of one who shoots real black powder isn't useful to the person who chooses to deposit corrosive salts in their firearms.

I've found that guns have to be scrupulously cleaned before using substitute powders so they can be thoroughly cleaned afterwards.  I've also found that any more than a few hours of letting those salts sit on cases or guns will start the process of corrosion.  That implies, to me, that the corrosion starts immediately.  I have found that ordinary cleaning with water and Ballistol does a good job of neutralizing the residue of substitute powders if carried out on a (sorry to repeat this) gun that was thoroughly cleaned to begin with and that has not had the salts on its surfaces for more than a few hours.

When I realized all this, it made real black powder much more appealing to me for cowboy shooting.  Yes, I have to deal with fouling during a match, and I have to keep a close eye on the guns to know when they're getting grumpy, but I don't have to worry about corrosion.

Substitute Powders and Real Black Powder are very different things where corrosion of expensive equipment is possible.

May I refer you to the excellent post above by Professor Marvel?:  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.html

[Doug.38PR]

Well... if someone would just render rosie o'Donnell down

 ...lower case intended

LOL!!!   People like her are the reason Whale oil is so hard to come by these days.

[Doug.38PR]

Well, since this hasn't been said, I'll jump in.

Black Powder is NOT corrosive.  It is hygroscopic, in that it will absorb water over time and hold that water next to the steel in firearms.  But, it is not corrosive and doesn't require immediate cleaning -- soon, but not immediate.

Substitute powders (Pyrodex, American Pioneer Powder, Black MZ, Triple 7, etc.) are all CORROSIVE.  They produce by-products during combustion that IMMEDIATELY start to corrode any metal they touch.  I have had brass and guns begin to corrode after using substitute powders by the next morning!!!!!!

So, giving, or taking advice from the perspective of one who shoots real black powder isn't useful to the person who chooses to deposit corrosive salts in their firearms.

I've found that guns have to be scrupulously cleaned before using substitute powders so they can be thoroughly cleaned afterwards.  I've also found that any more than a few hours of letting those salts sit on cases or guns will start the process of corrosion.  That implies, to me, that the corrosion starts immediately.  I have found that ordinary cleaning with water and Ballistol does a good job of neutralizing the residue of substitute powders if carried out on a (sorry to repeat this) gun that was thoroughly cleaned to begin with and that has not had the salts on its surfaces for more than a few hours.

When I realized all this, it made real black powder much more appealing to me for cowboy shooting.  Yes, I have to deal with fouling during a match, and I have to keep a close eye on the guns to know when they're getting grumpy, but I don't have to worry about corrosion.

Substitute Powders and Real Black Powder are very different things where corrosion of expensive equipment is possible.

May I refer you to the excellent post above by Professor Marvel?:  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.html

Thank you,  I'll check that thread out.  Both the Vaquero and Now the Schofield.  I'll tell you both of those guns were immaculate when I was through cleaning them.   It was so frustrating (especially the Schofield since it was a gift and a nice gun and the Vaquero more of a work horse) to see this happen to them after working so hard (for hours) making sure it was cleaned and, I thought, well oiled (but apparently the wrong kind of oil from discussion above)

I tried to find Black Powder a few months ago.  But, even in Houston, nobody has it.   You have to order it and it's expensive because of all the regulation involved (which is why our local sporting goods store in Louisiana stopped carrying it).   I think some of our SCV reenactors pool some money and order some every now and then from somewhere.     All they have in our local stores both here and in Houston is Pyrodex.  (can't even find American Pioneer anymore...and from what I've experienced...I'm not sure I want that anymore either)

[Coffinmaker]

OK August,
I'll take a couple of exceptions.  Certain of the BP substitutes are corrosive.  All by themselves.  The worst is Pyrodex.  Pyrodex is a rusting agent that just happens to go band.  777 can be much the same.  Immediate cleaning is the imperative.  No argument.

APP and Black MZ are not terribly corrosive.  Eventually, perhaps.  Myself and many others have shot matches and not cleaned guns for a week or more after shooting, with no ill effects.  Whether or not the guns can be ignored longer than that, I can't say.  But let us NOT paint ALL the Subs with the same brush.

Black Powder IS corrosive.  It just takes a long time.  BP is quite hygroscopic and that is it's bane.  I WILL attract moisture and hold it nest to the steel causing oxidation (rust).

Once clean, the biggie is to keep guns DRY. 

So don't be quite so critical of those of us who have and do shoot enough of both to know of which we speak.  There are, quite frankly, no absolutes.  There are precautions that must be taken with any of the propellants we use.  And, NONE of us freely recommend nor do we CHOSE to deposit corrosive salts on our guns.

[Abilene]

 A couple of related points.  I once got corrosion in the action of a stainless '92 after using Cleanshot (APP precursor) and apparently not cleaning well enough.  Also, while we can probably agree that the Hoppes 9 that Doug used was the bore solvent, they do make lubricating oil as well:  https://www.hoppes.com/traditional/lubricating-oil

[Doug.38PR]

A couple of related points.  I once got corrosion in the action of a stainless '92 after using Cleanshot (APP precursor) and apparently not cleaning well enough.  Also, while we can probably agree that the Hoppes 9 that Doug used was the bore solvent, they do make lubricating oil as well:  https://www.hoppes.com/traditional/lubricating-oil

Yes:  the Lubricating Oil is what I used in both cases

Also:  you said Cleanshot was the precursor to American Pioneer?   I still have a can of cleanshot and the powder does not look like American Pioneer. 

[Major 2]

Regardless, that is the case...

The branding change because of law suit of claimed infringment by GOEX  Clear Shot