Spencer Carbine Fix & Upper Breech Blocks Compared ** Updated with Photos**

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I had so much good fortune fixing my 1860 Spencer Carbine a short time ago, I tried it again on another 'more beatup' and well worn Spencer Carbine.  The stock is pretty bad but I have all the original innards and figured it wouldn't take me too long to get it in shooting condition.

I read and re-read all the SORI threads and posts on fitting a new centerfire block to an original Spencer.  But no matter what suggestions I try I run into the same problem.  

The downward action opens just fine, but when I try to close the action it hangs up and seems to stick.  It will close just fine when I give the lower block a "finger help lift" as shown in the photos below.  

Any thoughts on what I could try to get the action to close on its own?  BTW, I am using an S&S Upper Breech Block.
                                     (Breech Block Opens Just Fine)


                                     (Finger lifting and Breech Block Starts to Close)


                                     (Finger lifting and Breech Block Starts to Close)


                                     (Finger lifting and Breech Block Starts to Close)


                                     (Finger Lift Completed and Breech Block Closed)


What I find interesting is that when I remove the entire breech block assembly and then re-insert it, the Spencer will cycle maybe twice without hanging up, but then, it starts to hangup all over again.

Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

Ok - my 2.5 cents and check this on me.

The difference between fingering it up and using the lever is that the lever pushes the upper block against the frame, where the .  The upper block should ride the curved end of the trigger bar as it rolls back up into position.  Is it hanging on the curved end of the trigger bar? 

[Herbert]

Could be a number of causes:

(1) the trigger plate-block stop is too short and binding the action. Mark the groove in top of block with marking ink and see where it is stoping and whether it is scratching the block. If the trigger plate - block stop is to short or worn it will allowe the block to over travell or bind on the bottom of the stroke;if this is the case you will have to add metal to the block stop and re-shape,or get a replacment trigger plate

(2) the slot in the block stem is not the right size; coppy the dementions of the original slot in the rim fire block,make sure you do not take metal of the bottom of the slot as this will allowe the block to sit higher when action is closed and the fireing pin will not hit the primer in the center,you can all so remove a bit off metal of the bottom of the stem in case it is binding on the leaver.If you have a original rim fire block measure every thing on it and copy to new block and you will not go wrong

(3) and most likely the cut out bit that the slot is in in the block stem is not square with the block causing it to bind on full swing. Just file it square and slightly smaller than the slot in the lever and you are good to go.When the block is fitted in the leaver before it is installed back in the action check to see if can move side to side of the lower block by twisting the upper block,if it will not twist past center slitly booth ways the slot is too tight ,remove metal from the sides of the slots untill it will woble slitly side to side

I have done this with every S&S block I have installed and it is generally all the fitting needed.

Herbert

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[Two Flints]

Pvt Greg,

Yes, it does seem to hang up on the curved end of the trigger bar.  But I've already tried to smooth out the curved area with some minor filing.  No help there!

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Never shorten the trigger plat-block stop as this will allow the block to over travell causing it to jame the action or over travel completly,from the photos it looks to be a bit short all ready,if you can not find the cause of the jaming after checking every thing I have mentioned get some marking out ink and coat the inside of the action and the entire upper block including were it fits into the leaver,re-asemble and you will see shiny spots were it is binding

[Two Flints]

Hi Herbert,

Thanks for the additional info.  I'm looking at two areas causing the hangup of the breech block.  The trigger plate may have been filed down too much and the upper breech block keeps moving towards the curved end of the trigger plate.  And the previous owner may have filed the lower area of the receiver where the trigger plate gets screwed to the metal part of the receiver.

I'll give it some more time, but this Spencer is looking more and more like a wall hanger, unfortunately.

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Do not give up your carbine looks to be in much better condition than some I have fixed with very little work,have you tryed it with a trigger plate from your other carbine,all so have have you tryed yousing the action when it is not in the frame,best to remove the spring ror this test(check for any binding when the block is at full compresion)if there is binding put marking out blue on the cut out of the block stem for the leaver and also in the slot for the leaver screw,work the leaver a couple of times so the upper block is at full compresion,disasemble and check the wear marks.All so wyle the action is out of the frame and asembled get a straight edge and place it on the bottom block and top block were the front of the blocks join,now looking at the fireing pin hole and holging the leaver were it joins the bottom block ,twist the upper block,there should be movment here so it can twist slightly of center booth ways without moveing the leaver.The jaming has to be caused by one of these thing all very easy fixes,once you find the cause you will relise it was staring you in face all the time

[Two Flints]

Hello all, and Herbert (thank you for your suggestions ),

I may have found the problem. I did some measuring and "eye balling" of my S&S upper breech block and thought I noticed that one side of the block was a bit higher than the other side.  Not the fault of S&S, but my sanding of the top surface from before. I covered the top of the upper breech block with black ink and only that side showed rubbing when working the action..  See the photo and the side with the red arrows, joined together, was apparently causing the jam inside the receiver, as it was causing the upper breech block to enter the receiver at a very slight angle.  In my earlier photos, my "finger fix" corrected the angle and allowed the block assembly to move into the receiver just fine.

Now, the action is very smooth and I'm shocked at how well it seems to work.  My next step will be to fire a few of those "red" Spencer Blanks I used in my other original Spencer Carbine.



Thanks again Herbert

Two Flints

[Caleb Hobbs]

Congratulations, Two Flints. It always feels good to find a solution to a problem that seems, for a while, like it's gotten you beat. I'm eager to hear how it shoots.

Caleb

[Two Flints]

Thanks Caleb,

But, I may not be "good to go" just yet.  The stock is pretty bad with several very long cracks almost running the length of it, and the magazine tube is almost completely visible when you remove the hammer and plate and saddle ring and bar.  You can look from one side through the entire area to the opposite side.

So, anyway, I spread the stock slightly so it opened up the cracks just a bit and glued up the cracks with a dark glue and then clamped the stock to tighten up the cracks. I let the glue set, as I was hoping to strengthen up the entire stock.

Well, I re-inserted the hammer w/lock plate and the saddle bar & ring plate and tightened the screws and then, well, it started sticking again, like before.  But, this time, it was because the cartridge follower spring guide and cartridge follower were not aligned correctly.  Once that was corrected it started cycling OK.

Here are photos of this Spencer Carbine.















Two Flints      

[Herbert]

The desighn of the S&S block seem to have changed to the ones I have yoused,would it be posible to show a couple of photos of how the fireing slide and firing pin is conected and works,it looks much more solid than the old desighn

[Two Flints]

Hi Herbert,

Give me some time for the photos you asked for, but in the meantime here are photos of the Buffalo Arms Upper Breech Block that I have as a back up.







Two Flints

[JimBob]

Two questions sir.Is this the barreled receiver you bought at the garage sale?Between the two centerfire breechblocks which is your first choice as far as ease of fitting LOL if there is an easy?

[Two Flints]

JimBob,

Not sure I understand your question.  The Spencer Carbine in this thread was purchased from a gun dealer.  It had no hammer when I purchased it.  This Spencer was difficult to get working correctly, the stock was pretty beat up as I tried to describe it and extremely dirty.  My garage sale Spencer (barrel and receiver), mentioned in another thread,  was put together with many different parts I had collected and/or purchased from S&S Firearms and Buffalo Arms, and Dixie.  I guess the garage sale Spencer was easiest to get working correctly.

Two Flints 

[Two Flints]

Hi Herbert,

Here are the photos of the S&S Upper Breech Block you asked me to post earlier in this thread.  This U-B-B has not been modified in any way; new from S&S.











I wonder if it would be of any value to measure and compare the Buffalo Arms and S&S Breech Blocks to see how much they vary in size from each other.  They appear to be constructed the same way as far as the look of the firing pin setup, but the S&S firing pin conforms much better to the downward slope of the main part of the block.  See the red lines that show this difference.
 
                                                     S&S Upper Breech Block


                                                     Buffalo Arms Upper Breech Block


Two Flints

[Herbert]

The new blocks seem to be quite diffrent in the fireing slide than the ones I have yoused,I know this is asking a bit but would it be posible to show the block striped and how the parts look or can you copy the instructions that came with the block if any

[Two Flints]

Hi Herbert,

Here is a better look at the two upper breech blocks.  You and other interested SSS members can make your own conclusions by what you see, as far as the differences between the two blocks.  My red arrows are only to indicate obvious differences; but note the differences in the size and construction of the firing pins. 

The steel U-B-B is from S&S Firearms, while the case hardened U-B-B is from Buffalo Arms.







Two Flints

[Herbert]

In my opinion booth are improvments on the old S&S blocks I have yoused and I thought it was a good desighn,I would not have any problem yousing either one ,thank you for posting the photos