Target Ding from 36 navy

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
I am shooting a brass pietta 1851 36 cal in SASS events.  I am loading with App 3f and a .381 soft ball from Track of the wolf.
The hearing challanged counters say that they can barely hear the ding when i hit the target.  Would a harder or heavier
bullet help.  I hate to give up on the App powder because it burns so clean.
Regards
Colt

[Cuts Crooked]

Doesn't matter pard. Under SASS rules the "ding" isn't a factor. The only time a counter is supposed to call a miss is if he KNOWS it's a miss. If he THINKS it's a miss, it's not...he must KNOW! So fuggidabout and enjoy that .36 cap gun jist lthe way yer usin' it.

[River City John]

I'm real tempted to ask why are those counters relying on their ears instead of their eyes?

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[Dick Dastardly]

When I'm spotting I do just what Cuts said.  With ear plugs in and my hearing being as bad as it is, sometimes I'm not sure full house 45 Colt with 250 grain PRS bullets make a loud enough ding to be diagnostic of a hit.  When I see a miss, it's a miss.  All others are hits.

Keep on enjoying your guns just as you have been.

DD-DLoS

[Montana Slim]

A bit of a pet peve of mine also. I changesd philosophy years ago and try for a clean match. I shoot pretty slow too.
The general rule of calling misses sounds good, but we are all human.

Devils-advocate hat on:
So if you don't see the bullet strike the berm, or other non-target entity, how does one really know it was not a hit. OR, in other words If I don't SEE it hit the target, and I don't HEAR it hit the target, again, how do I know (for sure) it didn't hit the target, unless I see it hit something else(?)

Obvious obstacles abound. First there is the "fog" of black, and the resounding boom to mask the targets visually and audibly. Folks usually combine their senses to make a call.

I have had several called "miss" each year. I shoot .44's with 25 gr FFF in my handguns and 200gr MAV and 33 gr in 44-40 rifle.
Targets hit near a hanger may not sound or look like a hit (thus, ocasionally a miss is mistakenly called). Multiple "tapping" a target causes some target movement that can disguise a hit as well. Had a bank of swingers that we double sweeped with both handguns. The second shot on target 1 appeared to hit dirt 5+ ft rt of the target as a miss, but in reality, the ball glanced off the target without a sound audible (over the boom) and due to the angle of impact and movement of the target, the ball flattened and spun off. Had a similar event happen with the 44-40 rifle at our 2-day match, costing the clean match.

BP savy stage designers can help reduce some of these problems by spreading out targets a bit and keeping them back at the maximum recommended ranges, reducing double taps, etc, too.

If you shoot any C&B and/or BP cartridge, you have to prepared for getting the erroneous called miss.
You'll just have to be "good" knowing how you really performed.

The situation has gotten much better now that more BP shooters exist. As these "converts" experience shooting BP, they understand better how to spot it.

Regards,
Slim

[hellgate]

You may want to consider getting the LEE double cavity 36 conical mold which throws a 130gr RN. They are easy to load. I would drop the charge to about 15grs so as to not stretch the brass frame. A harder lead ball would be a little harder to load and also put undue force on the frame where the cylinder pin screws into it (prying it apart).
I shoot 44s now but there is some very "dead" steel out there that just doesn't ding. They are often the ones that touch the frame as they hang and so there is a muted sound and a clunk when hit rather than a ring.

[Capt. JEB]

I have had the same problem when I shot .36 Remmies.

It got to when I was at bigger matches I would just use .44's.

[Mako]

I'm real tempted to ask why are those counters relying on their ears instead of their eyes?

John,
It takes both senses to be a good target spotter.  Not all ranges have berms directly behind the targets, most I shoot at don't.  A common mistake new spotters make is relying on their eyes at the expense of the shooter, they see bullet splatter hit the ground and call a miss.

Colt Fanning, has a valid point and you will note others are not shooting .36 anymore, especially if it is a match you want to have a chance in.  I don't shoot my '51s or '61s much anymore because the boom of the revolvers overwhelms the strike of an 87 grain ball.  Most people hear the strike of my 140 grain ball from my '60s and they usually move the loosely hung targets.  On ranges that have falling plates I tend to up my normal CAS load of 28 grains to 30 grains in my '60s to make sure I take the target down.  I'm not sure if it is necessary, but I'm not going to give anyone the opening to "harass" me about "light" .44 loads on knock down targets.  I've not used my .36s on knockdowns in a match but I tried a '61 with fully charged chambers and a wad between the ball and powder after one match.  I am not sure what the charge was, I added additional powder by sight, seated a wad and the ball sat about 1/16" below mouth of the chambers.  2 out of 5 plates didn't fall.  Since I wasn't on the clock I aimed carefully and hit all of them between the center and the top of each plate.  I reloaded (only reset the 3 knocked down by walking up to the plate rack) and knocked the original standing  two down with one hit each.  I then shot the other three  I had one of the reset three not go down.  A .36 ball is an iffy proposition on knock down targets.

.36 caliber is barely par with modern FMJ .380 ACP loads.  It is louder because it is a Holy Black load, but ballistically it is wimpier.  Don't get me wrong I love my '61s and wish there was a 150 grain Big Lube bullet that I could load them with.  I just know what it's like to hit a target with a .36 and have it called a miss because the spotters are smokeless shooters and used to most Holy Black shooters using heavy large caliber bullets and Warthog class loads.  They get used to not being able to see around the smoke and calling hits based on the ring from a shooter using a .44 or .45.  I tend to try to get on posses with other Holy Black shooters because they know how to position themselves  to help see around the smoke, they also expect the reverberating boom and listen for that target hit at close ranges.

Just my two centavos worth, I almost exclusively shoot C&B at every match and know very well the problem that Colt faces.
~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

John,
It takes both senses to be a good target spotter...

True, I've been known to duck behind something to avoid nasty splatter.

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
Thanks for all the responses.  I will try the 130 grain conicals.  I called Midway when the 130 grn. conical Lee mold
didn't come up on the internet.  They said that Lee was no longer making them and referred me to Lee.  Lee said they still
had a few in stock and I ordered from them (at $25).  If anyone is interested in one they had better order soon.
Regards
Colt

[Noz]

Get your flame throwers ready!

Using the stated spotting technique "If you think its a miss, it's a hit". "If you don't see it impact the ground or surroundings, it's a hit", then all I would have to do it set my sights so that all shots would go over the berm and I'd shoot every stage clean because you wouldn't be able to see the miss.
As a spotter, if I am looking at the proper target, the gun is fired and I do not see any movement of the target, I see no splash on the target and I hear no impact then it is a miss. The fact that I did not see any impact on the ground, berm or props has nothing to do with it. I did not see a hit, it's a miss.

I know several Frontiersmen that shoot reasonable loads in their 51s and 61s and they don't seem to have trouble with the spotters. I said reasonable, not Warthog. I know one that shoots 24 grs in his 60s and less in his 61s and he has no trouble with the spotters.

[Fingers McGee]

Get your flame throwers ready!

Using the stated spotting technique "If you think its a miss, it's a hit". "If you don't see it impact the ground or surroundings, it's a hit", then all I would have to do it set my sights so that all shots would go over the berm and I'd shoot every stage clean because you wouldn't be able to see the miss.
As a spotter, if I am looking at the proper target, the gun is fired and I do not see any movement of the target, I see no splash on the target and I hear no impact then it is a miss. The fact that I did not see any impact on the ground, berm or props has nothing to do with it. I did not see a hit, it's a miss.

I know several Frontiersmen that shoot reasonable loads in their 51s and 61s and they don't seem to have trouble with the spotters. I said reasonable, not Warthog. I know one that shoots 24 grs in his 60s and less in his 61s and he has no trouble with the spotters.

+1

There have only been one or two occasions (ok - less than 10) where a spotter gave me a miss when I knew I hit the target using my '51s or '61s with a 20gr fffg/wad/.380rb load. 

FM

[Capt. JEB]

the problem I saw at some larger matches was socializing while spotting...so unless it went DING or shook the target off...MISS

right or wrong, just what I have experienced

[Russ T Chambers]

At our matches, and most I have been to recently, there are three counter,  If one happens to be “socializing”, and counts an erroneous miss, he is overridden by to other calls of a hit.  Tends to make it a bit less subjective on the part of a single counter.