'Factory' crimp dies....necessary?

[TennHillyBill]

Relatively new to reloading and been acquiring some die sets, all Lee at this point. I have 44-40(Henry), 44 Russian(Uberti Model 3), 41 Mag(Blackhawk), 30 Luger, Mauser Broomy.  I see ads for crimp dies which I assume are extra buys.  So the question is: are they necessary?  Are they used with just some cartridges....or all? Type of powder an issue?  Bill

[Pettifogger]

Almost all die sets have the bullet crimper built into the seater die.  Adjusting them can sometimes be a pain so a lot of people and a lot of die sets include a separate crimp die.  The Lee "Factory" crimp die is another bird.  It resizes the ammo after loading to make sure it is all in spec and can also act as a separate crimp die.  Are they necessary?  Millions of rounds have been loaded without a separate crimp die or the Factory crimp die.  Are they nice?  Yes, particularly on some calibers like the .44-40 where the built in crimp in the bullet seater often causes some problems.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I only have two LEE factory crimp dies.  Both are collet dies, one for .44-40, the other for .38-40.  Other than these two rounds, the regular crimp function on the seating die works just fine; - for me anyway.

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[joec]

I use the collet type FCD from Lee for my 45 colt but do use the standard Lee FCD on 9mm and 45 ACP even with lead cast bullets. I actually like them as I like crimping as a separate step.

[Crow Choker]

I have and use the Lee 'Factory Crimp' die for all of the handgun calibers I reload. They are a great die and do a superb job. No, you don't have to buy a seperate die to crimp, but you get a better cartridge by seating the bullet and crimping in two seperate operations. I know some will say they have seated and crimped for years doing it in one stroke of the handle, I did to for years. After starting to do it in two operations, I could see the difference, especially using lead bullets. Never got lead shavings or bulged cases anymore.
 You can seat and crimp in two operations using the factory die that come with you die set. Run a case you've trimmed or ready to load (minus the bullet) up to the top of the handle stroke, turn the die down until you feel it come into contact with the top of the case, then back it out a turn or two, and tighten the lock ring. Then go through the procedure to seat the bullet to the needed depth with the bullet seater plug. After you seat all your bullets, turn the bullet seater plug all the way up or remove it, then adjust the die down on the cartridge with the seated bullet to the desired crimp. I did it this way for years until going with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. All this should be explained in the 'Instruction' info you got with your dies. I don't have any Lee die sets, but in all the other major die sets I have, they explain this. It takes a little extra time to do it this way, but I and others believe it's worth it. Besides, I love to reload almost as much as shooting!!!!
If you want to read an informative article on crimping, check ot the Dec 2012 issue (#281) of 'Handloader' magazine. Brian Pearce wrote an excellent article on handgun cartridge crimping.   

[Lumpy Grits]

I use Lee FCD for every caliber I can.
YES, they work that well.
LG

[cpt dan blodgett]

Are they necessary?   A qualified probably not depends on how good you are at setting up your regular dies.  Long ago I used one in an attempt to fix a problem with extraction my Brothers AR was having.  He had fired some wolf steel case ammo and started having problems with his previously non problematic reloads.  Turns out we were barking up the wrong tree.  A new extractor and extractor spring fixed the real problem.

I started using the Factory crimp die for 45 ACP.  On the SASS Wild Bunch forum was educated that if I properly set up my ordinary dies, the factory crimp would not be needed.  With the factory crimp die I was getting about 1 or two rounds per hundred that did not fully chamber, but would if slide was bumped.

I was very careful to set my dies and measured case mouth, OAL, case just in front of rim etc.  was satisfied I had them set right.  Got 5 rounds in 200 that did not drop right into my Dillon Case Gage.  Loaded another 2 hundred using the factory crimp die, only had two that falled to fit properly into the case gage, closer inspection showed burrs on rim, touched with file the rounds fit.

For cases like 45 colt or 44 mag probably not needed but if you get a little over zealous with the roll crimp or if a slightly longer case ends up buldging from the crimp the Factory Crimp die will fix that problem as will trimming cases to uniform length and proper die adjustment.

With 9mm and 45 auto you can use the Factory Crimp die and the Bulge Buster attachment to run cases completely thru the die resizing the case base to spec if the cases were fired from a glock or other pistol that does not fully support the case.  If you shoot only ammo that uses brass that was only fired in your pistol and the pistol fully supports like a 1911 you should not really need one, but they are not expensive and are useful.

[joec]

With 9mm and 45 auto you can use the Factory Crimp die and the Bulge Buster attachment to run cases completely thru the die resizing the case base to spec if the cases were fired from a glock or other pistol that does not fully support the case.  If you shoot only ammo that uses brass that was only fired in your pistol and the pistol fully supports like a 1911 you should not really need one, but they are not expensive and are useful.

Only problem with this is you can't use the Bulge Buster with 9mm Luger brass due to the fact it isn't a straight wall case but a taper wall. 45 acp, 40 S&W etc work fine though.

[Lumpy Grits]

For straight wall handgun cases, using mixed brass. The Lee FCD can't be beat.
Big plus, is that size ring built into the die that is the final 'checker' 
LG

[rickk]

I forget what caliber I first tried a separate crimp die on, possibly 357. Whatever caliber it was, the benefits of a separate crimp die were immediately obvious. Since then I have bought separate crimp dies for just about everything I shoot that uses a lead (un-jacketed) bullet.

No more shaved rings of lead to battle with.  Trim length is a fair amount less critical too.

I love them!

Rick

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I use LEE factory crimp dies on 30-30, 44-40, and 30 carbine.  The factory crimp die is basically unaffected by case length. On calibers like 44-40 and 38-40, this is a good thing.  The crimp is more forgiving of cases with slightly longer OAL.

[1961MJS]

Hi

Color me stupid, but is a factory crimp a roll or a taper OR something else entirely?

I've been taper crimping all of my .45 ACP brass for years and it's worked well (knock knock know on wood).

My brass, and lead is on the road for the long Colt, but I haven't loaded any yet.  I was hoping that taper crimp would work since it seems to work the brass less.

Later

[Lumpy Grits]

For the semiauto the Lee FCD is a taper.
Revolvers are roll type.
LG

[Bugscuffle]

The advantage of roll crimping ala factory crimp dies is when the cartridges are used in tubular magazine rifles. There is a tendency for the bullets to get set back into the case with each shot (from then recoil) and that can lead to some very high chamber pressures or at least in consistant muzzle velocities. I have ordered a factory crimp die from Midway and am waiting toi try it out. I haven't had a problem yet, but with dangerous chamber pressures, or the risk of them, your first indication just may be a blown up rifle.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

For the semiauto the Lee FCD is a taper.
Revolvers are roll type.
LG

And for the 38WCF & 44WCF the LEE factory crimp die in a collet crimper

[Delmonico]

A taper crimp die will also roll the case into a crimp groove if it's there.  The Lee Facroty Crimp in the revolver calibers keeps the case below the crimp from pulling away from the bullet with too tight of a crimp if a case is slightly longer than the one the dies were set up for.  If you can't get a Lee die in a caliber but can get a taper crimp go for it.  I was using taper crimp for revolver rounds before the Lee die and a good taper crimp will not move.

I've loaded rounds for a friends Marlin in 45-70 and used the taper crimp, nothing moved.  If that won't move I doubt there is too much to be concerned about.  Anyone I ever saw that says a taper crimp won't work with a tube magazine either didn't crimp it tight or never even tried one.  Humor me, borrow a crimp die, load a dummy round and try to push it back with a vise, the case or the bullet will most often give first, I've tried it.  They can be a bitch to pull with a kinnetic puller, they are as hard to take apart as military ammo.

So who has tried one (not read about it) and had problems?

[Driftwood Johnson]

The advantage of roll crimping ala factory crimp dies is when the cartridges are used in tubular magazine rifles. There is a tendency for the bullets to get set back into the case with each shot (from then recoil) and that can lead to some very high chamber pressures or at least in consistant muzzle velocities.

Howdy

Actually, it ain't recoil that drives bullets back into the case, it is the magazine spring slamming the entire column of cartridges back every time the lifter or elevator removes a round from the stack. Recoil tends to drive bullets forward out of the case, not back in. The force of all the cartridges slamming backwards every time is what tends to telescope bullets into the case.

Not a problem with Black Powder, the compressed powder prevents the bullets from sliding back in any farther, but it can be a problem with Smokeless.

I only use a Lee Factory Crimp die with 44-40 and 38-40, and then only when loading Black Powder. Otherwise, with all the other calibers I load I simply seat and crimp in one step. Yes, I am one of those guys who does not see the necessity of a Factory Crimp Die.

The reason I use one with 44-40 and 38-40 is two fold.

1. These cartridges have extremely thin brass and a standard crimp may not be robust enough to hold the bullet in place against the impact of the cartridges slamming back in the magazine.

2. I only use Big Lube bullets for Black Powder. Big Lube bullets usually have so much lube in the lube groove that some oozes up into the crimp area. When trying to form the crimp, this oozed lube behaves like a liquid. It is very difficult to compress. A little bit too difficult for the standard crimp die. So experience has taught me that if I don't use the Factory crimp die with BP lube and Black Powder, I may have a bulged crimp. The Factory Crimp Die has more oomph to it than a standard seating/crimp die and will make the crimp, forcing any oozed lube back into the lube groove where it belongs.

But for all other cartridges, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44 Special, 44 Russian, and 38 Special, I simply seat the bullet and crimp in one step.

[RattlesnakeJack]

The advantage of roll crimping ala factory crimp dies is when the cartridges are used in tubular magazine rifles. There is a tendency for the bullets to get set back into the case with each shot ......

Precisely!  Not usually a problem in revolvers, however in my experience (shooting .45 Colt in Uberti Model 1866 and 1873 rifles) was bullets getting set far enough back in the case that eventually a cartridge moving onto the lifter is so short that it permits the base of the next cartridge in the mag tube to be fed back past the "cutoff point" ..... which hangs the rifle up totally!  Using a factory crimp die has solved that problem.

[Delmonico]

One point being missed here is Lee Factory Crimp dies are not the normal roll crimp die.  They, like the taper crimp die keep the case below the crimp groove from bulging out if the crimp is a bit tight such as a case longer than the one the die was set up with.  Both will keep that from happening and the majority of what keeps the bullet from moving is bullet pull rather than the crimp. 

[Delmonico]

I should add that if what you are doing is working fine, don't worry about it.  If you have problems find out why and then fix it.