Italian Parts or USA-Made?

[Don Kenna]

I'm trying to determine if this is an Italian-parts revolver, and if so, how early in USFA's history it was made.  In other words, was it imported as a completed revolver, disassembled, and refitted and refinished?  Or was it assembled by USFA out of  unfinished Italian parts?  Could it possibly be a late production USA-made revolver?

I realize its condition isn't pristine and that the stag grips are almost certainly not original.

The roll marking on the barrel is interesting.  I thought the Colt firm had made USFA stop using the word "COLT" in the roll marking very early on.

Yes.  I have asked the vendor to provide a photo of the markings on the top of the barrel.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=524352004

[Professor Marvel]

here is a little something that may help - yahoody is collecting serial numbers on this forum
go here
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,55093.25.html

and from the Ten-Ring  website seen here
http://www.tenring.com/firearms-single-actions/

states
snip----------------------------------------
Uberti Frame USFA’s

NOTE:  The question I get asked most often is “Is my USFA one of the first prototypes built on a Uberti frame with Uberti parts?”
If your USFA has a serial number “20,XXX, 21,XXX or 22,XXX through 22,500 or so, you have a USFA built on a Uberti frame and
I do not believe it is worth as much as a high quality 100% USFA single action.  Also, if you have a USFA with a six digit serial
number beginning in the number 1 (one) you have a Uberti frame USFA.
endsnip----------------------------------------

oh, and here's another very informative website:
http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html

yhs
prof marvel

[GaryG]

It's a Uberti.  Stag is not original.  Also appears to have been refinished.  You can tell the frame, BS and trigger guard were polished separately as the edges are rolled where the parts meet.

[Advertising]

[Buckaroo Lou]

I have a Henry Nettleton Artillery that I purchased awhile back. When I purchased it I thought it was a USA made firearm but due to the following website I now have questions.
http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html

This website shows Henry Nettleton’s with a serial number of HN47238 as being Uberti guns. The serial number of mine is HN47239 which is only one serial number away. I have a copy of the packing slip which was shipped with the firearm when it was originally purchased and shipped to Stonewall Arms in VA. It shows an invoice date of July 20, 2004 then a ship date of July 21, 2004 but a due date of July 20, 2004 which doesn’t make since to me.
Anyway can someone tell me if it is a Uberti or an all USA made firearm? Here are a couple of photos of the firearm. I am not sure if these two photos are sufficient so if I need to take more please let me know. Thanks.

Here is also a copy of the packing slip. I had to go over some of the numbers because they were beginning to fade badly.

[Professor Marvel]

I do hope the experts step up , as I am virtually a blind hog on the topic of USFA's .

Don - these two photos



and



really make me wonder what is going on - I have never seen a USFA so poorly finished!

Buckaroo -
take  a close look at your hammer and the hammers on the websites - those might help you.

best
prof marvel

[GaryG]

Lou,
Open the loading gate and check the pivot area as suggested by the pistol smith website.  That will tell you definitely what you have.  The serial numbers you mentioned are baffling to me.  Also, as the 20 year plus employee mentioned on the other website, no Uberti parts gun left the new factory.  The Ledyard St address is/was the new factory
Gary

[Buckaroo Lou]

Gary,

The loading gate pivot pin does not have the larger square hole like the one in the picture of the Uberti frame but it is slightly bigger than the one shown in the picture for the USA firearm frame. It angles across and is triangular shaped like the one in the USA frame photo but is slightly larger.

Thanks

[Don Kenna]

The blemish on the hammer appears to me as pitting--the aftermath of rust.  I think Gary may well be correct in his observation that the revolver has been refinished, and very poorly polished in preparation for that.  Or is it possible that the revolver was simply crudely polished prior to being assembled in the first place?  Note the protrusion of the cylinder base pin screw, for example.  I have two USFA revolvers assembled from Uberti parts, and their fit and function are very good--certainly far better than that in question and pictured here.


I do find the markings interesting, though.  The free use of Colt's name would seem to indicate a very early USFA firearm.

[The Pathfinder]

OK, am I missing something here? I don't see a mark anywhere that says USFA beyond the seller's description. The top of the barrel says Colt, and the marking on the side matches the last roll type engraving Colt used, altho the font doesn't look quite right, but I may be wrong about that. I hate to say it but it looks more like someone cobbled together an ASM frame from their last production of using up parts and maybe added the Colt address on top of the barrel. The fit of the triggerguard to the frame, looking at the serial number picture, is atrocious. Like I say I may be wrong but that revolver doesn't look to me like it was ever near USFA's production floor. At the very best this could be a reworked Colt, but for that it was either renumbered or someone found an old frame in the bottom of the bin, in which case they've destroyed an otherwise very collectable piece. Sad.

[buttebob]

I'm no expert, but I think it's a parts gun. The seller also doesn't know what he has as can be seen from his descriptive line. 
It has a Colt barrel. It has the correct two line address for a 4.75" or shorter barrel.
It has a black powder frame with a Colt 1931 serial number. That's not right. If it's a Colt the serial number will also be on the trigger guard and backstrap under the grips.
It has a two line date line, but no prancing colt to mark it as a Colt.
The sides of the trigger guard look as though they have been narrowed (to remove Italian markings?).
Nice looking aged stags.

If the serial number was removed and a new one added that's illegal.

[buttebob]

Oh, and like Pathfinder, I don't see where the seller gets USFA.

[Professor Marvel]

18 hours left and no takers.
Does anyone care to alert the vendor and GB as to the .... ahem ... fraud ?

yhs
prof marvel

[Buckaroo Lou]

Gary,

I compared my Henry Nettleton to my other USFA's that I know for certain are USA made guns and the loading gate pivot pins are all identical so it is a USA made firearm so yahoody and who ever else is collecting information can show the Henry Nettleton with the serial #HN47239 is a USA made firearm.

Thanks, Louis

[44 centerfire]

I'm no expert, 
It has a two line date line, but no prancing colt to mark it as a Colt.

Huh....in picture #6 on gunbroker shows the Colt circle with the stallion inside. It is very faint, but it is there.....

44 centerfire

[Coffinmaker]

As near as I can tell from the photos, it's a Colt BP type frame and Barrel.  The rest of the gun is anybody's guess.  It's NOT any kind of
USFA.  I'd be willing to bet the Trigger Guard and Backstrap are either ASM or Uberti.  Not Colt, no numbers.
One thing I'm certain of, I really don't want to do business with the seller.  At all.

Crab Cake.  Can't fool me.  No Frosting 

Coffinmaker

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

At some point, Colt stopped stamping serial numbers on the trigger guard and back strap.  Anyone know when that was?

[buttebob]

Capt John, I don't remember when Colt stopped stamping the numbers on the outside of the trigger guard and grip frame, but the serial number on this gun would be under the grips on the right side of the trigger frame and grip frame. So that part could be correct. It's still a 1931 serial number, unless they had a black powder frame laying around that someone wanted in 1931.
44 centerfire, thanks for pointing that out I couldn't see that at first.

It would be interesting to see a picture of the right side of the grip frame without the grips.

[buttebob]

The numbers in the serial number are not the same font as those on a Colt on GB from the same era.
Capt. John, the location of the serial numbers was changed sometime between 1919 and 1921.

I sent the seller an message and asked for a picture of the grip frame without the grips.

[yahoody]

Missed this one completely.  Hey Lou, mind sharing a picture of your HN's hammer firing pin and cocking serrations?

[Buckaroo Lou]

yahoody,

Here are some photos of the firing pin, the loading gate pivot, barrel marking, hammer and grip frame alignment, etc. Not sure what you are referring to when you ask for photos of the cocking serrations. I will not remove the hammer in order to show the engagement sears of the cocking sequence. Just don't want to dissemble the firearm.