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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  USFA CSS (Moderator: Capt. John Fitzgerald)  |  Topic: Serial Numbers - Let's Support Yahoody! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Serial Numbers - Let's Support Yahoody!  (Read 17338 times)
yahoody
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2015, 02:20:42 pm »

Sorry, my mistake..the conversions from C&B.
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2015, 05:25:21 pm »

OK, here is what I discoverered.  The ATF on-line records only go back to 1998.  USFA showed no production in the 1998 and 1999 annual reports.  From 2000 to 2011 they show 647 semi-autos produced and 37,002 revolvers produced.  2010 was far and away the biggest year with 12,007 produced.  I suspect this was to clear out as many remaining parts as possible in anticipation of closing down operations.  The number dropped to 48 in 2011 which is the last year ATF shows any records for USFA.  This certainly isn't a definitive numbers as I could find no record of USFA's rifle production.  The best guess I have for the rilfes is less than 500 were produced.
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yahoody
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2015, 08:29:19 pm »

Interesting info.
Despite the fact one gun listed previously here was from 1999.  I have four in boxes, labeled 6-97 all with USFA barrels.  Boxes and guns now where near the same production date is easy to explain but 3 or 4 years later?  Any thing is possible for sure.  Just makes the mystery surrounding USFA more interesting.

I do like the fact that there were only 44,350 total Bisley's were manufactured by Colt BITD.

Personally I would doubt 37,000 as a USFA total.  Or over 12,000 in one year.
Makes no sense to me that one year's production was 12,000.  When they reportedly only produced 37,000 total.

I'd also really want to see the bound book to see how the obvious Uberti frames/guns were listed..  Imports or manufactured?    I'd bet the number of imported "guns" by serial numbers from both USPFA and USFA would be enlightening.

By those numbers that is just over 3 years production....in your reported 10+ years.

I am sure Gary G. could give a more accurate insight.  But I doubt from previous comments anyone ever thought USFA was closing down until the last Holiday season when they simply did.

Knowing where many of the parts eventually went ..it would appear what you have suggested never happened.  Again Gary is the best reference we have for that info.

Either way I have no doubt the USFA, 100% USA guns were built in fairly small numbers by comparison to any manufacture short of may be Freedom Arms.
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2015, 10:40:49 pm »

In case you have never seen one of the ATF reports I am attaching a llnk to 2010.  This is the year USFA reported 12,007 produced.  What makes these difficult to follow is that they are not in alphabetical order.  They are listed by state.  So, scroll down through the pistols to the revolver section and look for Connecticutt (CT) and then USFA.  They break things down by caliber.  Most years the annual production was only around 2,000 so 2010 really stands out.  I doubt they would lie on a federal report.

https://www.atf.gov/files/statistics/download/afmer/2010-final-firearms-manufacturing-export-report.pdf
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2015, 11:24:26 pm »

Ruger makes over one million guns per year.  That's over 83,000 per month.  1000 per month is not that much for a manufacturing facility.
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yahoody
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2015, 01:50:25 am »

A quick review of the ATF records I could find showed:

Guns built in 2000, 2001, 2002, 20003, nothing I can find for 2004, more guns in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010.  Been working with the ATF for decades...mistakes makes perfect sense to me as does poor book keeping and reporting by a manufacture.

Here is what I have found in the past according to the reported numbers via ATF public records for US Firearms revolvers by caliber.

1997 to 1999 not found

2000
.22-0
.32-7
.357-0
.38-49
.44-49
.45-589

2001
.22-0
.32-10
.357-0
.38-43
.44-41
.45-927

2002
.22-0
.32-14
.357-0
.38-130
.44-23
.45-1004

2003
.22-0
.32-10
.357-0
.38-441
.44-1031
.45-472

2004 (not found)
.22-
.32-
.357-
.38-
.44-
.45-

2005
.22-41
.32-20
.357-0
.38-299
.44-354
.45-1832

2006
.22-32
.32-19
.357-0
.38-573
.44-268
.45-1331

2007
.22-60
.32-710
.357-1
.38-1693
.44-1361
.45-3279

2008
.22 - 3003
.32 - 31
.357 - 19
.38 - 619
.44 - 417
.50 - 4245

2009
.22-198
.32-17
.357-24
.38-220
.44-228
.45-895

2010
.22-1573
.32-141
.357-7
.38-1208
.44-1738
.45-7350

2011
.22-10
.32-0
.357-0
.38-5
.44-14
.45-19


Not that these number actually mean anything...but a few totals anyway.

.22-4914
.32-989
.357-51
.38-5280
.44-5524
.45-21943

38,701

I am terrible at transposing numbers so please let me know when you find a mistake.



Nothing specific listed in .30 Carbine which is a true .308.  Nothing specific on the 38WCF or the .41 Colt either.  Both .40 cal. 

Fact is.... every one is guessing on numbers built/caliber and date of production by serial numbers (or who actually manufactured the revolver Uberti or USFA) until the original bound books are examined and then published in detail.

*edited several times for clarity and earlier mistakes/misrepresentations*
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2015, 10:05:36 am »

You just missed a few years or looked in the wrong place.  For example 2008 shows:

.22 - 3003
.32 - 31
.357 - 19
.38 - 619
.44 - 417
.50 - 4245

Total for 2008 - 8334

They have an odd way of reporting.  .44 means UP TO .44.  .50 means UP TO .50 (which is the largest legal caliber).  So your 30 Carbine would be under .32.  For some reason the only caliber specific revolver category is .357.
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yahoody
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2015, 11:38:18 am »

Good info thank you.

I'll add 2008 to the list above.
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Tascosa Joe
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2015, 12:34:38 pm »

I am sending my 3 Serial Numbers to the list.

Henry Nettelton:  47411 Purchased new in 2010

634DT Doug Turnbull:  Black Powder Frame, 4 3/4"  45 Colt BCH Purchased used 2009 but the box has the shipping paper work to the original purchaser in 2008.

24912 Pre War Black Powder Frame 4 3/4" BCH 45 Colt  Purchased used 2009

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yahoody
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2015, 01:42:50 pm »

Thanks Joe, I'll add yours to the mix.

We are just starting to get a idea of the serial number production/delivery dates.  Going to take a lot more # to get a truth worthy and easily usable data base.

These are numbers I can verify shipping dates on:

-1999-
2102x
216XX

2002
A675
A676

-2004-
2271x
2276x
22966
22967
2299x
2310x
23123
2313x
78018

-2007-
2547x
2548x
T78018

-2008-
24254
2547x
2548x

-2009-
2547x
2725x
US10XX

Estimated production dates.. heavy on the description of "estimated"!

-1999-
2102x

2001
Nov-A582

2002
Jan-A671
A675
A676
B514
C2xx

2003
July - D889
aug- E134
sept-  G130
nov-  G372

-2004-
2271x
2276x
22966
2299x
2310x
23123
2313x

2005
E960
E970
Sept- 285XX


2006
436DT
590DT
618DT
78018 

2007
oct- SKA050
2547x
2548x
T78018

2008
634DT
24254
2547x
2548x
Nov- 262XX


2009
24912 
27256
27257
27258 
US10XX

2010
oct- 731xx
282xx
47411

2011
284XX
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Whiskey Hayes
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2015, 09:15:53 am »

I have a pair of Rodeos A675 and A676.  In each box there is a small envelope with a label listing model, barrel length, serial number, rifling spec, gunsmith name and date.  The date on each is January 15, 2002.  I purchased them new in March, 2002.  Inside the envelope is a fired case.

I also have a pair of SAA BP frame USFA.  Serial number 22966 and 22967.  There isn't an envelope with detailed specs in either box or any reference to a date.  I did order them in Jan 2004 and received them in July of 2004.

Hope this helps.

Whiskey Hayes
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yahoody
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2015, 11:20:33 am »

Thanks Whiskey, I added your numbers.  Verified numbers like that are a huge help sorting the rest.

I like your pair of BPs!  I own #23123, BP, 4 3/4", .45.  Sweet guns.
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Pangaea
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2015, 10:24:58 pm »

I wonder how many man hours it took to produce a single revolver?  I'm sure it was different for each model depending on finish, etc.  Another thread mentioned five hours just to polish a pistol for refinishing, just think how long from raw steel to a fabulous heirloom. 
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yahoody
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2015, 10:34:18 pm »

From a block of steel to finished product is a lot different than a cosmetic refinish.  It is a lot easier to fit and polish parts at the right time in production from a pile of parts, than it is to go back and refinish/rebuild anything.

The higher the original quality of part out of the CNC machines the easier/less hand fitting it takes to build a high quality end product. 

Once out of the machines, and many specific steps later, things go together a lot faster than you might think.   

Think building a house to spec....compared to a major remodel.
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HeckThomas
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« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2015, 07:32:04 pm »

My four are all BP frames with square rear sights and un-tapered front sights and appear to be USA made guns per Yahoody's and others "things to look for".

2006  SN 78018  .44WCF x 5.5" Single Action finish to re-produce my Grandpa's SAA

2007   SN T78018 .44WCF x 5.5" Pre War finish (funny story on this one)

2008   SN 24254  .45 x 7.5" Pre War finish  

Huh?    SN 47206 Henry Nettleton This was a personal gun of one of the USFA employees that found a home at Turnbull's. Bought in
          2011. Karl liked the easier to see sights, too.

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Pangaea
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2015, 08:50:10 am »

I was inventorying my pistols, taking pictures for insurance and a 4 3/4 inch 38 special, serial number 22187 had the later cone firing pin and a Uberti frame.  First one in the bunch I have seen like this.   
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yahoody
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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2015, 10:17:30 am »

Interesting stuff as always.  From what we have collected prior:

21213 parts gun
21215 parts gun
21651 parts gun
22113 parts gun
22180 parts gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?
22187 parts gun with a Uberti frame..cone firing pin (38Special)

22154 USA gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?
22293 cone USA
22421  cone firing pin
22934 cone USA gun

Wonder if it was one of the last Uberti frames to be used?   May the answer is in the re-highlighted quote below...
Either way USFA left us with a good detective story to sort through.

Quote from: Wheeler dealer
...The FIRST saa numbered at the old colt plant was ser no 20100.... Made from imported UBERTI parts.  Prior to that the parts came in already numbered.   Imported parts (internally?)  were replaced with parts made in USA ......  At the time of the move to the new plant there were about 25 old uberti frames left and they were never used as new frames were being produced at the new bld.   ...... after the new plant was up and running no uberti parts were used.   In the event that an old uberti gun came back for repair it was updated to the new hammer trigger hand and bolt.  Firing pins do not always tell you when the gun was made as the cone pin was standard some times the conical was used in 38 or 357  calibers. The cone pin had a recoil plate with a .110 hole and conical was smaller.


I'd sure like to know the serial number of the FIRST USA made frame.   But so far it looks to be between 22100 and 22200.
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Pangaea
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« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2015, 12:04:01 am »

I picked up a China Camp today, serial # cc 478.  The test target with it was dated 6/2003.
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Pangaea
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2015, 11:45:13 am »

Here's an odd one.  I have a Buntline that has a serial number of 28853, but has a Uberti frame and firing pin. 
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markg44
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2015, 01:46:20 pm »

I think I remember reading that all the buntline frames were Uberti.
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Blackpowder Burn
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Smoke & Lightning


« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2015, 10:33:01 am »

I'll add mine to the mix.......

25780 - Premium SAA, 44 WCF, 4-3/4" barrel, CCH Hammer, purchased from Long Hunter 2007
25781 - Premium SAA, 44 WCF, 4-3/4" barrel, CCH Hammer, purchased from Long Hunter 2007

L235 - Rodeo, 45 Colt, 4-3/4" barrel, purchased from Long Hunter 2008
L236 - Rodeo, 45 Colt, 4-3/4" barrel, purchased from Long Hunter 2008

Lightning Rifle #2115, 44 WCF carbine with a rifle buttstock and what appears to be upgraded wood. Purchased 2010 I think, but didn't keep records.

I spoke to Gary Granger and tried to order a Lightning, and he told me that USFA had ceased production by then, having made a total of "about" 400 rifles.  I then searched the internet and found mine on Gunbroker, NIB.

That's the lightning I'm shooting in my photo  Grin
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yahoody
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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2015, 10:07:41 pm »

Here's an odd one.  I have a Buntline that has a serial number of 28853, but has a Uberti frame and firing pin. 

disheartening at best
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usroady
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2015, 04:56:57 pm »

For my USFAs (Dates are from the fired cartridge envelopes):

Rodeo II Sheriff .45 Colt 3" SMB050 November 2007
Rodeo A667 .45 Colt 4-3/4" January 2002

Great effort - glad to contribute!  Mike.
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yahoody
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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2015, 11:33:57 am »

Thanks Mike!
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Capt. John Fitzgerald
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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2015, 09:38:29 pm »

BTT
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  USFA CSS (Moderator: Capt. John Fitzgerald)  |  Topic: Serial Numbers - Let's Support Yahoody! « previous next »
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