Damascus

[GunClick Rick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lefever_Grade_G_Damascus_Barrels.jpg

[Books OToole]

So...

After reviewing this thread again; no one has any hard evidence of a damascus bladed knife in the 1860-1900 "old west."

I have brought this up again because I just acquired a great, antler handled "bowie" with a 9" damascus blade.  All aspects of this knife are dead on correct* except for being damascus.

Any thoughts; or better yet, documentation.

Books


*circa 1850-1870

[Will Ketchum]

Well Mike I don't have any documentation.  I was told by the guy I acquired my Persian knife from that it had been in this country for over 200 years.  I do know from the "experts" on Antique Roadshow that it is probably that old, and I think Jim Downing concurred when he looked at it at the convention.  Was it on the Western frontier, probably not, but it could have been.

If I were including it in my profile as an Original I would have it being brought back by an ancestor who served in the US Marines against the Barbary pirates.

Pete

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[WaddWatsonEllis]

Damascus steel was a 'process', and was kept secret by the guild-like circles of swordsmiths who made it

At the same time, a very similar process was being used in Toledo, Spain, India (also known as Wootz steel). In Japan the wonderful samurai swords and katanas were also being made in very similar techniques ...

Since there was not such thing as NDI (Non Destructive Inspections), one had only the word of the seller, the pedigree of he maker (if known) and the sword/knife's charateristics to go by ....

Here are some interesting site on Damascus Steel ....

http://damascus.free.fr/f_exp/com.htm

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

I am enclosing pics of a modern Belduque made by Josh Dabney and a Wootz Steel Bowie that was 'improved by Chuck

[Dave Cole]

I don't think you'll find much documentation of common knives  being made with damascus in the Old West.That being said the steel was being produced in that era, and was being used.There is evidence of damascus rifle and shotgun barrels.There are a few items in Flayderman's "The Bowie Knife" , one in the Army and Navy Journal April 27,1867 stating the Bowie "excellent material, true damascus was never better".That could be taken several ways but it shows that folks knew about the steel, and another historian in the book states that "since no one can provide the formula for the Bowie knife we should investigate what is known of the Syrian blades."

Was it common in the Old West, absolutely not, was it used,IMO absolutely.Dave

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I have kind of an excuse for all my Damascus (besides I love the look lol) ...

Living in Sacramento, we were but an overnight steam from San Francisco, where ships were arriving from all over the globe ...

So it would not be out fo the ordinary to buy a high end trade Bowie or Belduque, or to have a well known swordsmith from any one of those ports make one ....

That's my story and i am stickin' to it ... *S*

[Books OToole]

If I were including it in my profile as an Original I would have it being brought back by an ancestor who served in the US Marines against the Barbary pirates.

Pete

Well now, if my geography is correct: Persia is Iran, and Barbary pirates are Algerian.  Those arn't quite the same.

An imported damascus knife is not the same as a distinctive Amercican style made with damascus steel.

I will check the Flayderman's book.  Other than that, we still haven't gotten any documentation.

To all;

I'm not trying to start a fight, I am trying to expand my knowlege.

Books

[Will Ketchum]

Well now, if my geography is correct: Persia is Iran, and Barbary pirates are Algerian.  Those arn't quite the same.

An imported damascus knife is not the same as a distinctive Amercican style made with damascus steel.

I will check the Flayderman's book.  Other than that, we still haven't gotten any documentation.

To all;

I'm not trying to start a fight, I am trying to expand my knowlege.

Books

You are correct but this area was a hot bed for trade.  There is much evidence of trade between Persia and Tripoli.  Regardless there is no real documentation that I am aware of.

Will Ketchum

[Books OToole]

To add to my previous post:

    "None of us, are as smart as all of us."

Contrary to popular belief; I am not so arrogant as to think that just because I can't document, doesn't mean that somebody else hasn't.

And that is who I am looking for.

Books


PS - WWE; your Belduque is one of the prettiest knives I have ever seen.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Boots,

Why thank you sir!

Would that I could take credit for it ... but my idea became much much more than I had envisioned under Josh Dabney's hands.

It is all his work and skill and vision that made it what it is today ...

And than you so much, Josh!

[Josh Dabney]

Books,

I've had the pleasure of viewing quite a bit of reference material on knives of the period and I've yet to see any knives , or mention of knives, that were damascus. 

My opinion is that the materials and knowledge were available throughout the entire time period so I would expect that there were damascus knives in the old west, albeit in EXTREMELY limited numbers.

I would imagine that if factory produced knives were created in damascus then there would be written evidence as to that fact so any knives that would have been damascus would've been blacksmith made pieces.

-Josh

[Mogorilla]

Just my thoughts, no documentation unfortunately.  My knowledge in blades ends about 1200 years earlier.   The Vikings were proud of their pattern welded blades and in some ways the pattern can be similar to the damascus pattern.  There was discussion a few years ago whether the Vikings swords, as new from the smith would have been polished, with the pattern appearing after use, i.e. blood bringing out the etching.  Since there are a few keenings describing the pattern of the swords, I was in the camp that they were not polished.  But isn't it possible that any damascus bowie would have been sold as polished?  Etching would appear as the blade was used.   Like I said just my thoughts and my sword documentation is either buried in my basement, or landfill after this last round of weird heavy rains.   

[Josh Dabney]

Mogorilla,

From my personal experience the only way to HIDE the fact that damascus is damascus is to leave a rough finish on it.   

When polished up and pre-etched-

From across the room it will appear to be a standard steel blade

However-  in hand inspection will reveal the damascus pattern.   

Etching creates the contrast that really makes the pattern stand out in the manner we're accustomed to seeing today.  different alloys of steel will etch at a different rate.  EVERYTHING will effect what the steel looks like when etched.   Level of carbon, alloyed elements, and surface finish prior to etching being the big differences that will effect what damascus looks like when etched.  Again though,  even if polished a close inspection will reveal the weld lines.


-Josh

[GunClick Rick]

Well this one was made in America and i am honored to tears to have it.Thank You Kid Terico and the maker Dave Cole!!

[jefff]

the term damascus has be come a trade name for layerd steel.this has been done to combine the flexablity of wrought iron and the edge holding of high carbon.a good example is how a tomahawk is made.wrought iron when polished and eched looks like damascus steel.since many tools of the time are forge welded out of horseshoes,nails and other scrap i think it is likely that knives like this eixisted and used in the old west.as for documation blacksmiths don'tmake money writing down.jefff

[GunClick Rick]

I bet the guy that made the steel in the knife i showed could enlighten us. As for any future documentation this one is now in the west~ May godbless the hands that created it!

[Books OToole]

Maybe one of the knife smiths could enlight us regarding:

Could a decent knife be made out of a burst damascus shotgun barrel?


Books.

[Josh Dabney]

Books,

It's unlikey that an old shotgun barrel would make a good knife.  My best guess would be that barrels would be made from steel that will harden but not into the range that will make a good knife in comparison to high carbon steels like 1075  1080  1084 or 1095.

It would be relying on the carbon content of the steel used to make the barrels that would be the determining factor if it would be a good knife or not.   The fact that it's damascus wouldn't be detrimental to the end product and I wouldn't be surprised if the barrel would make a decent axe or tomohawk head or other tool that didn't require a super keen edge and good wear resistance.

-Josh