Paired loops on shotgun cartridge belts, NCOWS approved?

[Eureka Ed]

Are shotgun cartridge belts with the loops stiched in pairs, with space between them, NCOWS approved? An example is the Deluxe Combination Cartridge/shotgun Belt sold by Buffalo Arms.
E. Knicley, NCOWS #709   

[Will Ketchum]

I can't say for certain but normally if you have to ask it probably isn't   By that I mean.  If you haven't seen an item in a old photo or available in a period catalog such as Montgomery Ward's or Sears & Roebuck's then it probably didn't exist and therefore wouldn't be NCOWS legal

Many of the items that have come along for SASS competition have their origins in trying to gain an advantage and have no historical basis.   It shouldn't be necessary for the NCOWS congress to have to review and vote on every innovation that comes down the pike.

It is up to the person who wants to use an item in question to show documentation as to it's common usage on the Western Frontier prior to 1899.  It's as simple as that.

The only examples of ways to carry shot shells that I have seen are canvas or leather belts and pouches.  Also the military had a covered cartridge box.  Innovations such as the slide that have not been documented shouldn't be allowed according to the bylaws.

Will Ketchum

[Brazos Bucky Smith]

  How about a Bandalaro (sp) with consecutive loops, but leaving one empty every third space?  Is that scirting the rules or just an OK thing to do?

Brazos Bucky

[Advertising]

[Will Ketchum]

The bandoleer is fine.  How you load it would be up to you. 

One thing you all need to realize about NCOWS.  We aren't a bunch of authenticity Nazis who go around critiquing other people's gear and outfits.  Mostly it's a self policing thing.  The more one becomes involved with NCOWS and it's philosophy of trying to experience things the way they were in the time we are trying to recapture the more they WANT to do things as correct as they can.

It has said that SASS is an organization for shooting where some socializing takes place.  NCOWS is more of a social event where there may be some shooting .  NCOWS is about so much more than shooting.  It's about doing reenactments and cowboy camp outs.  SASS has it's roots in IPSC.  NCOWS in Buckskinning.  Our roots are different so our goals are different.  Neither is better nor wrong.  Just different.  I was shooting IPSC at the same time I was doing Buckskinning.  Perhaps that is why I am a life member of both

I suggest you take the time to visit the Frontier Spot's NCOWS page and read the archives and posts.  There are many posts that reflect the above.  Since NCOWS is a member ran organization and much like a family you will also find a few squabbles but mostly we are a friendly bunch.

Will Ketchum

[Brazos Bucky Smith]

Thats what I am a lookin' for amigo!   Too many hobbies and whatevers get too serious, and by readin' what you all post I be thinking I have found me a pastime that looks to have as much fun as shootin'.

I mentioned the Bandoleer because I thought it might be legal and still give a shooter a good option.  The belt I see worn just above the holsters looks most uncomfortable!  And, with the expantion I see in some of the pictures of shooters, maybe hard sometimes to get those pesky shells out?

I would consider joining NCOWS but being out here on the left coast most events are a fir piece away!


BB

[Wymore Wrangler]

I'd offer a different opinion that Will, I think they would be legal, just because you don't see a picture in Sears or Wards catalog does mean that they weren't available, most leather and canvas products were purchase through local saddle makers who didn't have catalogs, if it's made from period correct materials, use it....

[St. George]

Here's a flash -
The small saddlers did in fact, have catalogs - Just like the big boys - and there were no "big boys" - just guys with better advertising.
They were involved in selling a product and word of mouth doesn't go as far as a manufacturer would like, so printing shops would step in to provide their services.

Spur makers did the same.

These catalogs came about in the latter 1890's after the towns that were established looked like they were there to stay.
I've seen several advanced collections of Old West material that featured the period printed material and I've reviewed all of it - including the harness makers who supplied as much of everything as they could.

There were no shotgun slides available  -  either in print, or in actuality.

The documentation is not there at all - and despite all of the wishing that it was  - that doesn't make it so.

NCOWS and authenticity and actual research are not for everyone.
But the willingness to do the research and  seek the documentation should be what defines the NCOWS member.

If you ever think about it - this slide business has been a hot button for quite awhile.
Many people have looked into it - maybe not people whose opinions you value - but they have looked into it, nonetheless, and no one has come up with any form of documentation - either in photographic form or in a print form.

Hell - if they had - there'd've been a guaranteed front page story for "The Shootist" and there would be no questions.

Shopping about for a consensus - instead of digging for documentation - is poor research at best, and the mere fact that a decision of sorts that was made at a shoot, by someone who could not actually change a rule follows that logic.

Document whatever it is that you question and no one will challenge it.
But to wish or think that it might've been there simply because it's a more convenient SASS-competition-related device is asking for comment, regardless of whether or not it's made of period materials.

An easy way to alleviate this recurring and seemingly never-ending problem would be to stage shotguns and ammunition for use.



Scouts Out!

[Wymore Wrangler]

St. George, I agree with you on staging shotguns and ammo, that would be the authentic thing to do, and when are we finally going to get you to shoot your first match??

[St. George]

I doubt you'll see me at Logan for quite some time - maybe a short visit during "Gunfire In the Hills", if I have the time.

I don't belong to any of the Posses, so I don't shoot at their ranges.
What shooting I do locally, I do on a couple of private ranges, with the bulk of it being done on an Army Post.

Scouts Out!

[Wymore Wrangler]

You don't have to be a member of the club to shoot, you need to come on out and have the fun with the rest of us... I would personally enjoy shooting with you ....

[St. George]

Re-read the earlier post - I just really don't have the time.
I travel - a lot...

I seriously doubt I'll shoot anything larger than 5.56mm and 9mm for some time, and those calibers  I shoot for "real" as opposed to for fun.

I won't shoot somewhere unless I belong, and since I can't belong, then I won't shoot.
May visit if time permits, though.

Scouts Out!

[Old Top]

St George,

What did the pouch look like for the military was it the dyer?  Or similial to the standard McKiver pouch?  Keep up the practice and do not for get to duck when you need to.

Old Top

[St. George]

Old Top -

The issued shotgun pouch was a converted Number 2 Hagner Cartridge Box - stripped of its loops and fitted with a wooden block for six 12-guage shells for the firing of Salutes.
The flap featured the "US" in an oval and it had the stud closure.

I have seen the Dyer-type of pouch used in C&WAS - but it wasn't during the time frame we represent.

A McKeever Pouch wouldn't've adapted itself as neatly as the Hagner, because the McKeever was hinged and its top would drop down upon opening - while the Hagner merely used a flap that was raised.

A soldier using a Springfield Forager would most likely have carried his extra 20-guage shells in his pockets.

Scouts Out!

[Old Top]

Thanks St. George,

I tried the Hagner, and found it just too big, dryer seems to work much better.  Thanks again for your answer

Old Top

[St. George]

The converted #2 Hagner was for 12-guage Salute cartridges - used in ceremonial duties that involved a small salute gun.
It wasn't designed for hunting - just to make the handling and carrying of the rounds more efficient.

The Dyer Pouch had a relatively short Service Life - it was, after all - experimental and never adopted.

The pouch in use by the Army for the Frontier Period was a converted Infantry Cap pouch - there being literally thousands on hand.

Now as to a shotgun pouch - a "Dyer-Type" pouch would work nicely as they were gusseted for expansion.
Tom Selleck uses a "civilian" version in one of his movies - "Crossfire Trail" - I believe - but he doesn't use a shotgun.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

[Trap]

  "If it's made from period correct materials, use it" You mean like wood and steel? So when are you going to bring your Thompson mg and your 1911 colt to an NCOWS shoot   jt

[Wymore Wrangler]

Trap to answer the original posters question, the answer is yes, remember the belt that Nolan Sackett put up from the Utah Bounty hunter circa 1890....

[Scarlet OToole]

Eureka Ed,
 Ketchum and St. George have said it very well. If one needs to ask the question, then it probably was not around or widely used.
  I have seen the double loops you speak of and they are not that neat looking when it comes to cowboys. I would much rather see the bandoleer.
  As has been said slides did not exist and when the information comes from places like the Smithsonian and Cowboy Museum, I would believe them over many others.  I personally would say the doubles rig wasn't around or we would see moe pictures of them somewhere, but as Ketchum or someone else has stated, it is a SASS thing that has filtered into NCOWS.
  You are asking questions and that is the best way as many here do hours and hours of research from many different sources.
Scarlet's gone

[Bullwhip Calhoun]

Hi all,
My first post.   I was reading this thread and got confused.  I know that if I ask about costuming authenticiy, it isn't because  I'm hoping to convince someone that what I want to wear is proper, whether it is or not.  The old stand by of 'If you have to ask, it probably isn't" is kinda silly.  When I ask, as I'm sure it is with many people, it is because I'm new to the cowboy game.  I've only been researching for around a year.  That's not a lot of time.  Many of you have put in years, if not decades of research.   The questions about authenticity are appeals to tap that wealth of knowledge that we newbies haven't accumulated yet. 

I'm sorry if this is an unwarranted admonishment, but the "If you have to ask, the it probably isn't authentic" would have a lot of new folk, new to the history, frustrated, because we have to ask about everything.

Bullwhip

[St. George]

Before you ask your question - you may be able to save yourself some time by first checking the various Archives - both here at CAS City and at The Frontier Spot.

Chances are good that your question has already been posed and answered.

If not - by all means - feel free to ask away...


Good Luck.

Scouts Out!