Hot loads in Cattleman

[Blair]

Pro.Mar,

I tend to very much agree with you.

While I do not consider myself an "expert" at anything, I do have areas of particular interest, that I enjoy trying to share or offer some of my knowledge on or about to forums like this.
How that shared info is perceived, is purely up to the individual.
I personally don't offer any loading info on smokeless types of powders.
That info is published by the manufactures. My best suggestion is to stay within those published guidelines.
But there again, that is just my opinion.
My best,
 Blair

[Delmonico]

But you can fix stupid, any vet can fix a dog or cat, take stupid there and have them perform the same task on stupid.   

[wildman1]

Professor Marvel glad to see that someone knows the difference between pressure spike and maximum pressure. Thanks wM1

[Advertising]

[T J B]

Please remember to NEVER use reloads in your firearms as it voids the warranty. Time for me to follow the written rules.

[Delmonico]

Please remember to NEVER use reloads in your firearms as it voids the warranty. Time for me to follow the written rules.

And if your read some of the comments in this thread you know why they use that disclaimer. 

Kida like saying red-line is 6500 rpm in my new car, but heck, that's conservative. 

[T J B]

I have just started to reload my 45 hunting loads ,as I open the book and read the load data I am astonished to find published loads for the 45 at 11.5 grains of Unique heavens ,that is well over the 14,000 number that so many on this posting session have said MUST be followed .So I will follow the experts and common sense.

[Good Troy]

I found this link interesting...

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-argument-techniques-that-ruin-arguments-for-everyone.php

[Delmonico]

I have just started to reload my 45 hunting loads ,as I open the book and read the load data I am astonished to find published loads for the 45 at 11.5 grains of Unique heavens ,that is well over the 14,000 number that so many on this posting session have said MUST be followed .So I will follow the experts and common sense.

So why is this book so secret? 

[Blair]

This might help.
It is called, " Things you didn't know about ammo."
I think this is the link to it?

My best,
 Blair
Ps; that link doesn't work for me. Sorry!
So try a title search under the "Mail Call' series by R. Lee Emory
 Blair

[Delmonico]

Give it up, they don't want to know.

Myself I suspect we have what is called a Troll.   

I'm done with this and I leave you all with this since I am suspecting this is what we have. 

[Blair]

A Troll or more than one Troll is unimportant.

Interesting subjects have been presented during this discussion.
Discussions that may be rather confusing for "Non- troll-like-type members" of this forum.
I believe these members deserver something more than just being "cut off at the knees".
The choice, is as always, up to them. And of course, perhaps, the actual Moderator of this forum?
My best,
 Blair

[Delmonico]

Well anyone who can't figure out that you should follow established loading data from the companies that make the product is lost already. 

Blunt yes, but the truth is often blunt and hurts peoples feelings.   Part of what we call modern society and one of our biggest problems, it's been explained enough here already, if that hurts anyones feelings so be it.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

 Geez. Where to begin, or rather end!

Threads such as this really turn into pissing contests which typically ruins the discussion. Quite par for the course, especially in regards to this subject, two or three posters begin to post over an over never saying anything new, rather repeating their admonishments and reducing the contents of their posts to petty remarks and name calling. "By gosh we've always done it this way and if you don't, then you're FLAT OUT WRONG!" So be it. The world is full of folks such as this and we all deal with them on a daily basis. Life goes on...

   Professor, no offense, but your posts are so long, rambling and take so many bunny trails, that they're, well, exhausting to read and burdensome to answer due to the varied content. But a high point or two:

   I'm glad you found some references to Keith's blow-ups, even though #2 was evidently second-hand information. So we're still pretty shy of the "quite a few" Colt SA's you say he managed to blow up with BP. That's an example of misinformation to which I refer.
   On a side note, I find the 1929 excerpt from the "The Last Word" both interesting and confusing. I have in front of me my Dad's old Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets circa 1959. On page 88 are "Elmer Keith's Recommendations" for several cartridges of which includes the 45 Colt. He states: "I use 6.5 grains of Bullseye or 10 grains of Unique or 18.5 grains of 2400 with bullet 454424, sized exactly to groove diameter, usually .452 or .454." Hmm...so much for being "...all through with heavy smokeless loads in the 45 Colt.".

 

You balked at the discussion of pressure curves -
Do you understand the whys and wherefores of the pressure curves and spikes, how metallurgy is affected, and why a knowledge
of the characteristics is important to an advanced reloader?

  Of course I balked. Why would I discuss something of which I have no understanding? (Ah, the irony...)  There's nothing for me to discuss because I know nothing about them, nor do I need to. All I have to do is what everyone here agrees upon; follow the data. Again, this begs the question: Why rail and carry on that folks need to simply follow published data, then muddy the water with the minutiae of pressure curves and spikes. I mean damn, I know that I have to run diesel in my pickup, I don't need to know WHY. I know I need to wear my seatbelt without knowing the physics involved with automobile collisions.

 

We have been telling folks in this thread all along "Read The F****G Manual" and don't stray until
you really really know what you are doing.  Yet you argue with us until your last post .

  Here's one of those places where you completely lose me.
 
  Some here allude to the fact that I've posting dangerous load data that is not found in manuals, and that I don't follow published data. I've re-read all my posts and other than my reference to Skeeter Skelton's famous load for the .44 Special, (and I didn't post the actual load) and Keith's loads above (JUST A REFERENCE, NOT A RECOMMENDATION)I found no loads I'd posted here that couldn't be found in a manual. Sorry if some of these loads cause some of you consternation. If/when this is the case, you need to contact the publisher of the loads rather than criticize those of us who use them.

   So, if any of you have first hand experience with the danger of the published loads I've mentioned being dangerous, FIRST contact the publisher then enlighten those of us here who are interested. 

[Professor Marvel]

My Dear Cholla -
First, thank you for replying! Seriously. No sarcasm.

I apologize for the length and rambling. It is literally an affectation which can make for amusing stories , but as you point out
utterly confuses a proper technical discussion.

When I keep it brief, and we directly address each other, and specific points,  I can see that you and I are in fact in agreement on most if not all points.

I definitely conceed that 3 documented KB's for Elmer is less than "quite a few"  :-)  ... I am guilty of exaggeration .

When I review the loads you actually  posted, I can see that you are following well-known recipes - and I conceded that in the bunny-trails ;-)

I do believe we got off on the wrong foot, partially due to the topic title and I apologize for any misunderstandings. One such misunderstanding is the Original Poster's  request for a "hotter load" which I am sad to say sets off alarm bells followed by
"please read the books" .   Somehow, the tone of the thread  after that seemed argumentative

The loads he desires are in fact in the numerous manuals and it is burdensome to keep posting them at every new guy's request.
I even put up a long post which the mods made into a sticky at the head of this SubForum called
       "Beginner's Guide to Reloading for CAS"
which includes links to many of the online loading manuals.

After a while it gets tiresome to have to say PLEASE RTFM .

A lot of Forums will not allow any loads to be posted or discussed , but the forum owner is allowing it here as long as we
stay within the published poop ( which you did )

The important thing is to Stay Safe. KB's are bad, and can often be avoided.

more rambling in  a bit, for easier reading.

your humble servant
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

My Good Cholla -
I mentioned pressure curves since you had brought it up here:

"One thing I totally forgot was Europe's version of SAAMI which is C.I.P. They require all firearms be tested with proof loads before they are put on the market. Proof loads used for revolver cartridges produce chamber pressures 30% greater than the C.I.P. maximum. Their pressure standard for the 45 Colt 16,000 psi (15,945 to be exact) as opposed to SAAMI's which is 14,000. This means, for example, that Uberti's revolvers chambered in 45 Colt are proofed with loads generating right at 21,000 psi. I find it comforting that the European imports are designed and produced with a little wiggle room with regards to their chamber pressure standards when compared to those of SAAMI. "

The problem is, the old SAAMI number of 14,000 is in CUP not psi. I mentioned that in one of my bunny trails. CUP is Copper Units of Pressure, and *can* be loosely correlated to psi, but there are no officially sanctioned conversion values.

14,000 CUP is close to 16,000 psi but it still only relates a maximum average pressure. In both Lee and Lyman manuals there is some discussion of this, my old 1970 Lyman book has a sections where they discuss their lab results at length .

In many cases Lyman throws out a promising looking load because even tho the averages look good they get deviations that can throw the measured pressure 4,000 CUP over. Add to that changing a single component can increase pressure by 2000 to 4000 CUP.

their example was for a rifle load that they kept ~ 56,000  CUP
for example: - change primers

brand x primer avg pressure = 56,500 CUP extreme variation =  2,800 CUP   
brand z primer avg pressure = 57,500 CUP extreme variation =  5,400 CUP

so we see just by changing the primer, the max pressure went over 62,900 CUP !

If you change how hard you crimp that can change another 1000 to 5000 CUP. 

And throughout all this the velocity hardly changes even 1 or 2 %.

Thus you can see that if one regularly goes up to or regularly exceeds the "do not exceed" or max load , it is not just possible but very likely that 10- 20% your loads is now over pressure and may even be up to"proof loads".

"averages" are deceptive. it is the max deviation in an already "hot load" that can kill you

later we can chat about pressure curves and pressure spikes

yhs
prof marvel

[Davem]

I'm going to say a few things and PLEASE don't take offense but every time I ask a question of this nature I seldom get any good information and the few folks that may have some valuable input tend to drop out of the dialogue.   So....to all. I KNOW if I put in too much powder I can blow up the gun and kill myself. THANKS ANYWAY 
   I started with the Peacemaker clones and I want to stay on that track but first- on the 38/357 issue.  This input that a cylinder chambered for the 357 Magnum gets a better heat treatment. That makes sense.  I make knives and you can do a "regular" heat treat or an additional deep freeze that enhances things but costs more so the idea a manufacturer would only go the extra step with a 357 cylinder makes perfect sense. End of question: you can go plus P but no more because the heat treatment on a .38 special cylinder can't take it.
   Now, back to the issue I originally asked. First- I asked because I don't know- that's why I asked.  I think I may have some false assumptions so let me state those.
1. I thought that the current 45 Colt ammunition was loaded with mild charges so the ammunition could be fired in any peacemaker, modern Peacemakers or the old guns with the "black powder" frames.
   a. Based upon that assumption, the natural progression is to wonder....Gee, if the current ammunition is made purposefully weak so it won't blow up the old black powder frames, then how much could you "bump up" the load so as to get enhanced power and still be safe? Seems that's reasonable.  The similar situation would be the 38 special versus better 357 magnum heat treatment.
2. NOW I'M WONDERING if I was wrong on my assumption.  What I am now thinking is that the modern 45 Colt ammunition is okay in the modern frame BUT SHOULD NOT be used in the old black powder frames- the old frames can't take it.  That would of course change everything. it would mean the current 45 Colt ammunition is not loaded with mild charges and it is already loaded to a level for modern frames so you cannot bump up the load.  The other possible false assumption I had was that the smokeless powder could somehow produce a more powerful load.  Since the two powders burn differently maybe I'm wrong on that. In other words the original 45 Colt cartridge loaded with black powder already produced a load about equal in power to anything a smokeless powder could SAFELY do in a modern frame. The only advantage of the smokeless powder being it is less corrosive.
   So....these are things I am now thinking. As I said, I hope everyone grasps my thought process, I'm not trying to turn a 45 Colt into a 44 magnum, I thought the current 45 Colt loads were way under powered for the modern frames.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

   You are correct. The people with the most information and especially with the most experience do tend to drop out of these conversations due to all the badgering and belittling.

 Regarding 45 Colt factory loads and pressures, who knows, and if you're a handloader what difference does it make? We don't and probably never will know the chamber pressures of your typical factory Colt ammunition. The simple thing to do would be to compare the published ballistics of factory ammunition to those in published load data. I think you'll find that handloaders can easy (and safely) exceed the power of factory 45 Colt loads.

   Regarding black powder vs. smokeless, and some of you BP experts correct me if I'm wrong, BP requires and enormous amount of cartridge case volume compared to smokeless and requires much more propellant in the case to achive ballistics similar to smokeless powders. Thus it is very inefficient, besides being dirty and smoky.

    Bottom line: get yourself a chronograph and get busy working up loads. You'll answer your own question in very short order.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

My Dear Cholla -
First, thank you for replying! Seriously. No sarcasm.

I apologize for the length and rambling. It is literally an affectation which can make for amusing stories , but as you point out
utterly confuses a proper technical discussion.

When I keep it brief, and we directly address each other, and specific points,  I can see that you and I are in fact in agreement on most if not all points.

I definitely conceed that 3 documented KB's for Elmer is less than "quite a few"  :-)  ... I am guilty of exaggeration .

When I review the loads you actually  posted, I can see that you are following well-known recipes - and I conceded that in the bunny-trails ;-)

I do believe we got off on the wrong foot, partially due to the topic title and I apologize for any misunderstandings. One such misunderstanding is the Original Poster's  request for a "hotter load" which I am sad to say sets off alarm bells followed by
"please read the books" .   Somehow, the tone of the thread  after that seemed argumentative

The loads he desires are in fact in the numerous manuals and it is burdensome to keep posting them at every new guy's request.
I even put up a long post which the mods made into a sticky at the head of this SubForum called
       "Beginner's Guide to Reloading for CAS"
which includes links to many of the online loading manuals.

After a while it gets tiresome to have to say PLEASE RTFM .

A lot of Forums will not allow any loads to be posted or discussed , but the forum owner is allowing it here as long as we
stay within the published poop ( which you did )

The important thing is to Stay Safe. KB's are bad, and can often be avoided.

more rambling in  a bit, for easier reading.

your humble servant
prof marvel

 Thanks for all this!

[Blair]

T B J,

Look at the offered "usable" information posted by forum users.
Those that post with the least amount of usable info during the discussion, will most likely be the troll types.
My best,
 Blair

[Professor Marvel]

DAVEM and CHOLLA - thanks for returning. I think we can pull this of the sewer. I will PM you folks.

So anyone who disagrees is a TROLL well Look at the data for the Ruger  Black Hawk or the Freedom Arms Revolvers both in 45 Colt the reloading data shows loads FAR above the SAAMI listed 14,000  There are reams, upon reams of listed data that debunk the old SAAMI limit of 14,000  Read my fellow re loaders and make you own decisions as to what info you will use. This is all from a TROLL with over 50 years in the firearms and load development profession.
Remember that the cylinder is the containment vessel and the modern steels of today have changed some of the old myths.  I bid you all a good day.
    Last post on this dead horse

 Thank you, now I understand You are saying if the info supplied by other knowledgeable shooters is  not deemed  useful  by some than that individual is now a Troll. That seems to confirm my closed minded in the box comment.
 I thank you for clarifying the format.

Hello TJB
I will try to keep this short and simple - no bunny trails ,etc

There is a HUGE difference between a standard 1873 Model P revolver design and a Ruger  Black Hawk or the Freedom Arms Revolver.
YOU KNOW this.  

EVERYBODY KNOWS if you use Ruger Only loads in a stock Model P you end up with broken parts.
Yet you clearly use the bait and bitch tactic of common trolls.

Be Advised In some places that is called "criminal negligence" and "criminal incitement"

If a Nooby followed your post he could be dead.

Please live up to your promise of "Last post on this dead horse"
We do not need that sort of posting.

I am asking the mods to lock this
prof marvel