stand by for a rant

[Bunk Stagnerg]

I am amused and puzzled by postings made by people who want to make a magnum pistol using a gun and cartridge designed 140 years old based in a design 178 years old.

If you want a magnum big bore revolver look into the .454 Casull and achieve your goal safely.
The .45 Colt revolver was designed to shoot a very big case full of HOLY BLACK not a comparatively small amount of some double base smokes somewhat less powder.

That being said if you want to blow up a gun for Pete’s sake use a clone not an original. Elmer Keith already did that quite a few times and worked out how it can be done.

I am also amused by the “chrono junkies” that talk about how fast the bullet goes. Personally I go with Larry Vickers saying “fast is fine, accuracy is final”.

It makes no difference how fast it goes if it doesn’t go where you want it to go.
 And yes when I get an accurate load I do chronograph it just to be sure I make a proper power factor for whatever I am shooting be  it  IPSC, IDPA, or SASS to be sure I am shooting a legal load and not gaming with mouse phart loads.

Did I manage to p1$$ any one off?
Respectfully ranted
Hold center mass
Bunk

[Shawnee McGrutt]

Yes you did  .  Not really, just saying you did, to make you happy.

[Fingers McGee]

I feel your pain Bunk. Thing that gripes me the most are nimrods that come on a forum asking a question before doing a topic search, which causes the regular long time participants to regurgitate previously offered responses.

[Advertising]

[Shotgun Franklin]

Yeah, it's amazing the armchair geniuses who think they can rant but only look like a fool when doing it.
Maybe they could do a little research before throwing their limited opinions out.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Things have been pretty quiet on the forum and i just wanted to stir things up.
Looks like I failed
Bunk

[St. George]

Posting just to 'stir things up' is a pretty juvenile thing to do, and most folks don't/won't rise to the bait.

What they will respond to - if you're looking to establish a thread - is an honest question or a post about something unique that your researching has discovered.

Folks like that sort of thing.

Give it a try.

Scouts Out!

[Cliff Fendley]

I feel your pain brother, I hear it repeatedly at gun shows.

Elmer Kieth already blew up a few guns not designed for what his intended goal was. Today thanks to his work and others such as Dick Casull, John Linebaugh, and other even more recent developments one can have as powerful handgun as they could ever want and be safe about it. So why hot rod a 45 colt?

I myself have come to my senses and am going the other way, I just sold one of my 454 Casull revolvers the other day. I have realized shooting is more fun if the gun isn't going off like a stick of dynamite in my hand.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Oddly guns are not made just for sissy loads. They can handle loads tested by the major ammo makers and tested by companies who make and sell components. Not everyone uses a gun just for dinging a steel target or putting a hole in a piece of paper. If a person stays within researched limits (from reputable companies) then there should not be any problems.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Hello Cliff
yes I agree Elmer did disassemble a few guns, but he was working on developing a better more powerful cartridge, and knew what he was doing when he was pushing the envelope.

The Joe Dufus that is trying to make a .45 Colt Single Action drive bullets faster than the speed of stink is who I was talking about.  I think all will agree on that.

By "stirring something up" I hoped to start a civil discussion of shooting and reloading and that is all.

Personally i have been reloading since the days of FA#70 primers and powders like HiVel#2 and Hercules Lightening.
Phil Sharpe and his "Complete Guide to Handloading" was my bible. So far i have not blown up anything but I have run few pounds of powder through the tube in the last 50 or so years.
respectfully submitted
Hold center
Bunk

[Navy Six]

I don't usually "rant" but since I retired yesterday, I get a free pass just this once!!! Where did most of this emphasis on velocity from? Have you been reading the gun magazines for the last 40 years? I had subscriptions to most of them and can say that many of the articles seemed to equate "more velocity" with "best loads". This in particular with handgun loads. So the casual shooter saw this and thought they had to push each caliber for all it was worth, and this included the old blackpowder rounds. I will always stand in admiration of Elmer Keith and am glad guys like him did so much of the development work that got us to where we are today. I am also glad that I got off the "velocity train" and Cowboy Shooting came along and gave me an excuse to go back to working with the old blackpowder cartridges, especially with blackpowder. Its' been a lot more fun.

[Forty Rod]

I am amused and puzzled by postings made by people who want to make a magnum pistol using a gun and cartridge designed 140 years old based in a design 178 years old.

If you want a magnum big bore revolver look into the .454 Casull and achieve your goal safely.
The .45 Colt revolver was designed to shoot a very big case full of HOLY BLACK not a comparatively small amount of some double base smokes somewhat less powder.

That being said if you want to blow up a gun for Pete’s sake use a clone not an original. Elmer Keith already did that quite a few times and worked out how it can be done.

I am also amused by the “chrono junkies” that talk about how fast the bullet goes. Personally I go with Larry Vickers saying “fast is fine, accuracy is final”.

It makes no difference how fast it goes if it doesn’t go where you want it to go.
 And yes when I get an accurate load I do chronograph it just to be sure I make a proper power factor for whatever I am shooting be  it  IPSC, IDPA, or SASS to be sure I am shooting a legal load and not gaming with mouse phart loads.

Did I manage to p1$$ any one off?
Respectfully ranted
Hold center mass
Bunk

Son, if you ain't pi$$ing someone off you ain't doing something right.      

[pony express]

If I feel the need for something somewhat fast, I got a .41 Mag S&W. If I wanna shoot my .45Colt, I shoot normal .45 Colt loads, or sometimes Schofield. I got kind of big hands and the bottom corner of the short SAA grip digs into my palm enough with full BP loads, no need to go heavier.

[Shotgun Franklin]

With a full BP load in a .45 you ought to be getting as fast as 930 fps. I do not consider that a 'magnum' load, it's just a bit hotter than I carry.

[w44wcf]

....I use to kid the 44 Mag boys that I was shooting a century old .45 Colt cartridge  and wasn't having any trouble knocking over the steel ram at 200 meters.......

These days I have come to more appreciate the vintage .45 Colt round for what it was originally intended for BUT back in 1973  the main reason that I purchased the 45 Colt was that everybody I knew owned 44 mags so I wanted to be a bit different. I have never regretted  that decision.  I purchased a Ruger Blackhawk 7 1/2' for the specific reason of making horsepower!!.

I had become interested in IHMSA and at the time, the 200 meter steel ram was a challenge. Not only did the bullet have to make contact, but the ram had to go down to count.  Well, on the range that I competed, the 44 Mags at the time were ONLY about 70% positive. The heaviest bullet available for the 44 at that time was 265 grs.

To bring down those pesky rams with 100% reliability, enter the 45 Colt. More momentum was needed and I had a 45-70 and several bullet molds that I used for it. Among them was the 350 gr (457192).

I started testing with 296 powder and found an ideal load where the 350 gr bullet exited the muzzle at 1,100 f.p.s. The cases literally fell from the chambers!    Result -  any ram that got tagged with one of those .45 Colt launched projectiles disappeared quickly.  I kidded the .44 Magnum boys that I wasn't having any trouble and I was using a Century old cartridge!

The .45 Colt can do it all in the right gun(!) but as I said, I really appreciate the grand vintage .45 colt for which it was initially intended and that's the way I load it these days. 

w44wcf      

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

I am amused and puzzled by postings made by people who want to make a magnum pistol using a gun and cartridge designed 140 years old based in a design 178 years old.

If you want a magnum big bore revolver look into the .454 Casull and achieve your goal safely.
The .45 Colt revolver was designed to shoot a very big case full of HOLY BLACK not a comparatively small amount of some double base smokes somewhat less powder.

That being said if you want to blow up a gun for Pete’s sake use a clone not an original. Elmer Keith already did that quite a few times and worked out how it can be done.

I am also amused by the “chrono junkies” that talk about how fast the bullet goes. Personally I go with Larry Vickers saying “fast is fine, accuracy is final”.

It makes no difference how fast it goes if it doesn’t go where you want it to go.
 And yes when I get an accurate load I do chronograph it just to be sure I make a proper power factor for whatever I am shooting be  it  IPSC, IDPA, or SASS to be sure I am shooting a legal load and not gaming with mouse phart loads.

Did I manage to p1$$ any one off?
Respectfully ranted
Hold center mass
Bunk

 OK, I'll bite...

  I don't guess I understand what puzzles you. Are you puzzled that folks buy modern lever action 45-70's and load them beyond the original BP loadings? Is it puzzling that Winchester, once the model '92 was introduced, developed the W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) loading for it? What about the 38 Special +P? And if you think about it, ALL rimmed handgun cartridges are based on a 178 year old design, aren't they?

  Sorry fella, but by my definition the 45 Colt was a magnum the day it hit the market. All it lacked/lacks was/is the name. I have run a 285 gr. cast lead bullet right up near 1000 fps and stay within the SAAMI specs of 14,000 psi according to the source of the data. Modern powders have made the grand old 45 Colt an even more powerful number.

  There's hardly a week goes by that I don't read on some internet forum that Elmer Keith blew up quite a few guns, blew up several guns, etc.. I recently finished reading "Sixguns". Now it took me a while to get through it, and my memory ain't the greatest, but I only recall reading of one revolver he blew up (which really wasn't blown up at all) and it had nothing to do with load testing, rather was attributed by him to a 45 Colt case head weakened by the use if black powder. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

  My personal use for cartridges such as the .44 Special and 45 Colt are, in order of relevance, 1) shooting, because there's nothing I love more than pulling a trigger 2) hunting and 3) a little CAS from time to time. The chronograph is a VERY useful tool. If I did nothing but CAS, I probably wouldn't own one because all that's required is the bullet making a large target at short range go "tink" when it's hit. For my own use, I work loads up to the desired velocity for hunting, usually 950 - 1000 fps, refine them until they'll shoot fist size groups at 50 yds., then work to find an accurate load in the 850 fps range for practice and "fun" shooting. In this manner I have similar points of impact with my fixed sight revolvers.

  I take it from your post that you don't like non-smokeless powder. I have respect for you guys that shoot non-smokeless powder, but you need to remember that it's pretty much a novelty these days except maybe for those who use BP firearms for hunting regulations. A buddy gave me a couple of pounds of Hodgdon BP substitute (Select and Triple 7). I loaded and fired around 3 dozen or so rounds through one of my .44 Specials. Holy CRAP what a mess!! How was the west won by firearms shooting cartridges loaded with powder that gummed and sooted up inner workings so fast?!?!? And after using it I'm supposed to clean my steel firearms with a water based solution? Add to that the brass that has to be cleaned with a special potion of vinegar, pomegranate juice, crude oil from Saudi Arabia and rhinoceros pee, and it's just too much trouble for me!! I'd much rather spend the time shooting than cleaning. That said and as a side note I will see I was very impressed with the velocities attained by the Triple 7.

  So there you have another point of view. And really I understand where you're coming from because I have a very bad habit of forgetting that not everyone thinks like me and does things as I do!

 Regards,

 Cholla

[tseaha]

Yo Bunk,  BaaaHaaaHaa, Loved your rant. In my opinion, all that "magnum" trash is just that "trash".  While I was working for NRA, the joke was when the first .454 Casul was sent in for testing ( when they really had ballistics experts working for NRA eg. Bob Sears and Ed Harris). After the  very first shot in the test range, the cylinder pin sheared off and the cylinder rolled out and ker-chunked across the range's concrete floor. Fortunately, for Casul, no one bothered to include that in the test report. Mind you, I wasn't there for that and I can't testify, but it was told to me to illustrate the gullibility of the Amercan consumer for " Bigger, Louder, More Better". In my humble opinion, you want huge terminal ballistics.... Get a long gun.

[tseaha]

Yo pistol is good for across the card table or for executing unarmed citizens with a shot to the back of the head like the Nazis Einsatzgruppen did to the Jews in occupied territories. Not saying that I don't absolutely love to shoot my handguns and carry one at all times. Just gotta know your limitations.

[tseaha]

Cholla you are 100% correct . The .45 Long Colt was developed to shoot the Indian ponies out from under their occupants so the Calvary could use their primary weapon( the sabre) to hack them to pieces. Thus, in my opinion, any cartridge developed to drop a horse is good enough for me to use across the card table. Anything more "magnum" is just excessive noise and an excuse to charge me mo money by the gun companies.😎

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Hello Cholla Hill Tirador

I agree the .45 Colt was the magnum revolver caliber of its time. Just as the model T Ford was the fastest thing on 4 wheels of its time.
What puzzles me is the logic behind trying to make the .45 Colt equal to the .454 Casull, To my mind that is equal to  entering a model T in the Daytona 500 since it was the fasted thing at one time.. The same goes for the .45-70 loaded to maximum trying to emulate the ballistics of the Winchester .458 African.

My question is simply WHY?  If you want a magnum .45 caliber revolver then get one in a magnum caliber because there are plenty available. Same for the .45-70 because the .458 and a 500 grain bullet in a case loaded with IMR 3031 will, I can attest, get the job done. And it will do so with vigor on both ends.

You misunderstand I have no dislike at all of nitro powders, goodness knows I have burned uncounted pounds of it over the years from as far back as HighVel 2 and still do use smokeless sometimes for CAS shooting and fun plinking.
 
When I shoot Black Powder I do so because it is fun and easily available.  I no longer can compete with shooters 20 years younger hobbled, as I am, with arthritis and the result of losing a contest with a horse trying to determine who is going to be on top. I lost winding up not only under the horse flat on my back but the injuries I sustained ended my ability to ride and slowed my run down to a slow limp. So I have fun and razz the "smokes some what less" shooters about the period correctness of my ammo.

As far as that mess with the black powder substitute in the .44 Special is concerned it can be cleaned with any solvent, but yes the brass needs to be cleaned with hot soapy water The rhinoceros pee is optional.
 For example I shot my .45-70 over the weekend and it took just 3 patches wet with Ballistol/water mix (Moose Milk) to clean the barrel as a result of using bullets lubed with a BP compatible lube.

Please understand  I did not mean to start an argument or irritate you so let us continue a friendly exchange of thoughts.

Hold center

Respectfully submitted
Bunk

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Hello Cholla Hill Tirador

I agree the .45 Colt was the magnum revolver caliber of its time. Just as the model T Ford was the fastest thing on 4 wheels of its time.
What puzzles me is the logic behind trying to make the .45 Colt equal to the .454 Casull, To my mind that is equal to  entering a model T in the Daytona 500 since it was the fasted thing at one time.. The same goes for the .45-70 loaded to maximum trying to emulate the ballistics of the Winchester .458 African.

My question is simply WHY?  If you want a magnum .45 caliber revolver then get one in a magnum caliber because there are plenty available. Same for the .45-70 because the .458 and a 500 grain bullet in a case loaded with IMR 3031 will, I can attest, get the job done. And it will do so with vigor on both ends.

You misunderstand I have no dislike at all of nitro powders, goodness knows I have burned uncounted pounds of it over the years from as far back as HighVel 2 and still do use smokeless sometimes for CAS shooting and fun plinking.
 
When I shoot Black Powder I do so because it is fun and easily available.  I no longer can compete with shooters 20 years younger hobbled, as I am, with arthritis and the result of losing a contest with a horse trying to determine who is going to be on top. I lost winding up not only under the horse flat on my back but the injuries I sustained ended my ability to ride and slowed my run down to a slow limp. So I have fun and razz the "smokes some what less" shooters about the period correctness of my ammo.

As far as that mess with the black powder substitute in the .44 Special is concerned it can be cleaned with any solvent, but yes the brass needs to be cleaned with hot soapy water The rhinoceros pee is optional.
 For example I shot my .45-70 over the weekend and it took just 3 patches wet with Ballistol/water mix (Moose Milk) to clean the barrel as a result of using bullets lubed with a BP compatible lube.

Please understand  I did not mean to start an argument or irritate you so let us continue a friendly exchange of thoughts.

Hold center

Respectfully submitted
Bunk

   Oh, don't worry, I wasn't really irritated...maybe a little pissy, but not irritated.    I rather enjoy these discussions!

   Folks load 45 Colt's and 45-70's up because they feel they "need to". I have been guilty of it myself and I'll give you an example and tell you why.

   A couple of years ago I bought a Ruger Flat Top Blackhawk in .44 Special. I eventually (using Elmer Keith's load) loaded it up to a level equivalent to .44 Magnum levels as loaded by the Big 3 ammo manufacturers. Shot it a little then went back to my normal hunting loads. Why, you ask, didn't I just buy a .44 Magnum? Because I didn't want a heavy, large frame when 90% of my shooting will be with .44 Special level loads. Seems counterintuitive to me to buy a big, bulky revolver only to shoot light loads in it.

   Same with my 45 Colt's. I shot a box or so of reloads tonight after work, all of which were a little lighter than the original load. But when I load it to trek the thick creek bottoms of the ranch next door, I'll probably stoke it with something running a 280-ish gr. bullet close to 1000 fps since momma hogs like to hang out with their young 'uns in such places. Again, I don't want to buy a massive 454 Casull or even a large frame Ruger. I like my little Uberti's and USFA because they're light and don't cause me to list to starboard when I carry them for a few hours at a time.

  Regarding the 45-70, I own/fire a couple of those too (1895 Marlin & Ruger #1) and neither can be loaded anywhere near 458 Magnum levels. My guess is folks load the Marlin's heavy because they want as much power as possible out of a lever rifle and to my knowledge, no one chambers the 458 in a lever.

 So, there you have it, with the utmost veneration,

 Cholla