Cap & Ball without wads or lube?

[Two Bit Charlie]

I was on another forum and the discussion of using APP or other subs came up. They were saying that if you used APP, had tight fitting balls, even if you did not use lubed wads or have grease over your balls, you didn't have to worry about chain fires. Why is that? Is it the powder, or is it the tight fitting balls seal the cylinder? If It's the fit of the balls, can you do without lubed wads or greased balls with real black powder?

I'm just getting into cap guns. I use APP in my cowboy guns and Swiss in my BPCR.

Two-Bit Charlie

PS -Try writing a post like this while keeping a straight face. 

[Coffinmaker]

  Well .... Since you ask .. 

There's really no need to grease yer balls     Or for that matter greasy anywhere.  Actually.  Don't need any grease on yer balls at all (snicker snicker snicker)     Don't need lubed Wads neither.  Total waste of time and material.  With APP or Black MZ.

There are several schools of thought concerning Chain Fire.  Thought number one:  Chain Fire is caused by poor fitting or missing caps.  After all, there is a great ball of fire around yer nipples (Grin, snicker snicker) at ignition.  Very possible to get "flash over" sufficient to cause Chain Fire because yer Nipples are unprotected     So ... be sure to protect yer nipples     If you have a stage with a reload, load all 6 chambers.  Cap 5 at the loading table (that's all you can cap anyway) and at the Buzzard, cap your 6th nipple BEFORE you shoot that pistol.  Keeps yer nipple  protected.

Thought number two:  Poorly fitting Balls.  If yer balls fit poorly    you will have a problem (potentially).  Correct size balls    will shave a tiny ring of lead all the way around the ball and the ball will seal the chamber completely.  No Chain Fire.  If your shooting Pietta .44s, always start with .451 balls.

Thought number three:  Greasing your balls (ROFLMAO) is not real effective.  Grease yer balls (falls off chair), fire a round, then look at the cylinder face.  Grease be gone.  Blown clean off except for a thin film of grease on the cylinder face.  This thin film of grease will trap spilled powder (from a flask) and trail it (powder) from chamber to chamber (think "fuse") and perhaps sneak past yer other balls (choke) and in some circles it thought to be the prime criminal.

My suggestion.  Load OFF THE GUN.  Use a cylinder loading stand.  Between stages, wipe the cylinder face clean, the barrel breach clean and the Arbor clean.  Takes about 10 seconds.  Use a small funnel (Possibles shop or other) with a scoop or flask.  You always have a clean cylinder face.  Gun runs as smooth and clean at stage six as stage one.  I drop the APP, ram the projectile and DONE.  Never had a Chain Fire.  I am opinionated too. 

[Bibbyman]

I've shot 44 with bare balls with BlackMZ and it not only worked fine but was a lot cleaner than with any lube.  I did find BlackMZ to be much more powerful than real black.  I cut the charge to the minimum and used a filler to take up space.

I had a Remington 58 when I was still in my teens and the mouths of the chambers were chamfered and the balls would swedge down on loading so there was no ring of lead.   

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[Two Bit Charlie]

So what you're saying is, It's the fitting of the balls not the kind of propellant. Doesn't matter if it's APP, BlackMZ or true black powder a proper fitting ball will not let a chain fire happen from the business end of the  cylinder.

Thank you

Two-Bit Charlie

I never had this much fun writing about cartridge guns

[Coffinmaker]

OK Two Bit.

Pay attention.  I'm only gonna say this oncest.  Suppository Shooters are BORING!!  Really really BORING!!  Nowhere near as much fun as Cap Guns.  GOT IT??  OK .. Good.

Now, to elaborate.  You should carry a small spray bottle of PAM.  Hydrogen Peroxide (P) Denatured Alcohol (A) Murphy's Oil Soap (M).  Spritz a rag with some PAM.  Wipe the Cylinder Face down between stages.  Gun will run much smoother.

YES!!  Correctamundo!!  The key here is proper fitting Balls    Undersize, out of round, Pee poor balls     will not be conducive to a truly Harmonious Outcome.  If your balls    fit the chambers properly (slightly oversize balls  ) and your Cylinder Face is clean, your not going to get Chain Fire.  It is imperative a small ring of lead be shaved when yer balls are seated    How you seat yer balls is very important   

[PJ Hardtack]

A fellow I know shot a pair of Walkers. He never used lube over the chambers and never suffered chain fires. Same for his pair of Ruger Old Armys.

I tried it once with my Remingtons and had a chain fire and I got a ring of lead. I still lube the chamber mouths. Is it messy? - yes. I use baby wipes to clean the gun and hand cleaner on my hands.

[Dick Dastardly]

Simple solution.  Load lube/sized EPP-UG or DD-ROA Big Lube®LLC bullets.  Charge the chambers with Genuine powder & seat the bullets.  Done, presto pronto.  Never a chain fire from the exit end of the cylinders.  Properly lube/sized bullets should be sized for an interference fit to the chambers.  The rebated base of these bullets assures that they sit straight and proud for easy correct seating.

DD-MDA

[PJ Hardtack]

We still run the risk of caps being loose or falling off.

If it hasn't happened to you, you started shooting cap & ball yesterday.

[PJ Hardtack]

 If you have a stage with a reload, load all 6 chambers.  Cap 5 at the loading table (that's all you can cap anyway) and at the Buzzard, cap your 6th nipple BEFORE you shoot that pistol.  Keeps yer nipple  protected.

I'm glad you clarified that. Back when I took my SASS RO class, the rule stated that you could cap the 6th chamber any time before the first or after the last shot.

Our people instantly replied - "Not at our club, you won't!"

The rule change came about shortly thereafter.

If you shoot a five shot revolver- cap the 5th chamber before your FIRST shot.

[Coffinmaker]

HI HO SILVER AWAY (Stolen famous TV Show line)

All of my foregoing Noted Knowledge pertained primarily principally pertinent to Projectiles Projected from Percussion Pistols propelled in principal with .... APP     Now say that fast three times  

Returning to the question of "Lube" or Grease with yer Balls   and or Bullets.  I actually don't shoot Ball anymore.  Shoot bullets.  I found in the .36s, the Beez Kneez to be the EPP UG - 36 as proffered by Dirty Dick Dastardly.  Note: Shameless Plug for DDD.  In most instances, a .36 Round Ball (Proper soft lead) is kind of "dead" on a steel target and lazy no good for nothing spotters complain they can't, don't or couldn't hear the Balls    hit the steel.  I find that somewhat annoying    So with infinite wisdom, I switched to the EPP UG - 36 in my righteous Navys.  The EPP UG - 36 Weighs 90Gr as cast and as I shoot APP, I shoot the little suckers "as cast"  .  They give a nice satisfying 38ish KLANG on the targets.

For the 44s, I have also gravitated to the EPP UG - 45. As proffered by Dirty Dick Dastardly (Another Shameless Plug for DDD) and "as cast" they weigh 150Gr =/- and also give a nice solid KLANG o target.  However, I don't shoot them as cast.  Too large for Pietta chambers so I run em the Luber/Sizer sans lube.  Great bullets.

Now >>>> I also shoot these "Bullets" with Genuine Powder.  With Genuine Powder, you have to have lube.  The EPP UG Bullets have an enormous lube groove and carry a butt load of lube downa barrel.  More than sufficient.  In Both calibers.  Makes no difference.  The .36s    and .45s carry plenty of lube.  Seated square to the bore of the chamber, no grease over yer Balls (snicker snicker) is necessary.

PJ:  YOU did something wrong  

PS:  PJ, today in this century, if you shooting Slixshot nipples and Remington # 10 caps, your not having loose caps nor caps falling off.  In the ages between original Colt nipples and caps (tight and water proof) and todays well made after-market nipples and Remington # 10 caps, there were problems with some caps.  I'll go out on a limb here, also in those ages past, there were way too many Percussion shooters whom refused to use correct caps.  "I have a thousand of "x" caps, so I'll just pinch em, they'll work."  You can even get caps to fall off Slixshot nipples.  Just buy the wrong cap and be hard headed. 

[Professor Marvel]

Simple solution.  Load lube/sized EPP-UG or DD-ROA Big Lube®LLC bullets....
DD-MDA

That’s the DD we know and love!

Good to see you nearly back to your old self My Dear Monsieur Dasterdly!

Yhs
Prof marvel

[Mogorilla]

To ad my $0.02, I never grease/lube independently.  If I have them I will often use lubed wads, probably more habit than anything, but I do feel it helps keep the bore running smoother, without having to wipe down.   I find using wads, I can shoot about 60 shots, with no noticeable fouling in the barrel.  If no wads, I typically run a patch down the 1860 at about 40.   

One and only chainfire was poor fitting caps.  I saw in the igno-second before my brain told me to stop squeezing the trigger and the actual squeeze that a poor fitting cap had fallen off and it was the next chamber.  In the ensuing pant wetting chaos, the correct chamber and two others went.  Kudos to Col. Colt, as the gun was none the worse for wear.   It surely gave my heart some palpitations to be certain and for sure. 

[PJ Hardtack]

Like I said - if you haven't had this happen, you started shooting cap & ball yesterday. In this age of enlightenment where we have Slixshot nipples and proper fitting caps, cap & ball guns have become much more reliable.

But - if something can go wrong with a gun during a match, it will be with a cap & ball gun, particularly a Colt "wedgie". Part of their charm.

PJ:  YOU did something wrong  

PS:  PJ, today in this century, if you shooting Slixshot nipples and Remington # 10 caps, your not having loose caps nor caps falling off.  In the ages between original Colt nipples and caps (tight and water proof) and todays well made after-market nipples and Remington # 10 caps, there were problems with some caps.  I'll go out on a limb here, also in those ages past, there were way too many Percussion shooters whom refused to use correct caps.  "I have a thousand of "x" caps, so I'll just pinch em, they'll work."  You can even get caps to fall off Slixshot nipples.  Just buy the wrong cap and be hard headed. 

[Lefty Dude]

Well I must say; " Y'all sure have BALLS "  !!!!!

[Coffinmaker]

BALLS .. said the Queen.  For she hand NONE.

Had I but Two I'd be KING!!

Twouldent that be FUN!!

Burma Shave 

Hey!!  Lefty!! How ya B??

[Chance]

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html

Chance

[Coffinmaker]

ALL,

If your going to shoot Cap Guns (Everybody should shoot Cap Guns .. No??) JeoJohn should be required reading.  I don't agree with some of his stuff ..... however ...... His stuff is just SO GOOD!!  He dispels many OLD WIVES TALES.  Take some time out of your busy days and read his whole thing.

[PJ Hardtack]

Read it. Learned a few things. He took a scientific, hands on approach to his findings.

The bit about uncapped nipples not being an issue -  I don't think SASS would approve, regardless of his findings.

As for the left over lube over the cylinder face - all it takes is a swipe with a rag or finger and it's gone. You ain't gonna come home with clean paws from shootin' cap & ball no how!

I like the idea of a slight chamfer on the chamber mouths. For one thing, it would lessen the chance of making them oval due to misalignment of the ball rammer over lengthy use. A friend has a pair of stainless Armi San Marco .44 Rems he wants to sell and the chamber mouths are so chamfered.

The idea of using a cut down rifle casing as a funnel has some merit - if you can't pour successfully otherwise. I admit to charging from a brass flask and have never had a problem to date. I trust that the time between firing my last shot and reloading is sufficient for any embers to die out.
You would think if anything is going to create smouldering embers, it would be paper cartridges. However, I've used every kind of paper - newsprint, paper towels, onion skin, etc. for paper cartridges for my '63 Sharps rifles and never had an issue as I blow in the chamber before inserting the next rd. Frequently there is a bit of paper left, usually where the glue was applied.

I has always been told that the idea of the lube was to keep the bore lubed and prevent leading. When shooting cap & ball in a match, I always clean the bores at lunch time. I was surprised to see that the lube only made it half way down the bore of my Rem .44s, dispelling that myth.

One thing I do is use a vent prick to clean the nipples after charging, before capping. This after suffering misfires due to plugged nipples.

[greyhawk]

Greasy balls n such ..............

........Just when the dicscussion is gettin deep and meaningful ... along comes Coffinmaker and blast it all away with his humor - how we sposed ta concentrate after that eh!

Weeeel somebody gotta try so heres my take on misfires - some is logic n a little is experience

The rear end chainfire
1) stickin to my guns that the most likely cause (an the most easily fixed) is capped nipples impacting the recoil shield at the back end - if you have not checked yr capgun for safe clearance there - ya better go di it right now .......no use just eyballin the gun at rest either - dont firget the hand can be pushin the cylinder forwards - and - when she fires - that cylinder is going further to the rear than you can push it wid yer thumb ........over time the recoil shield / cylinder on some guns can wear in and reduce what was once safe clearance -- have seen some  "clones" that didnt have any recoil ridge at all they just relied on the flats on the ratchet to locate the cylinder - if that is a brass gun an ya shoot it a bit those flats will burr into the face of the frame an ya loose clearance ---seen that one too ---- sooooo if a capped nipple can make contact (even the slightest touch) wid anythin other than the hammer - ya got a dangerous situation   - FIX IT!!
2) crappy fitting caps - I bet most of us done that at some point - cap falls off nipple? this is a lot harder to achieve on my gunz than ya might imagine - it hasta happen as the cylinder rotates past the laoding port or the stock cutout notch on an 1860 army  - if ya have the problem eluded to in 1) above then some fitting is needed to fix that -- no big deal shortening nipples a bit - I have a dremel wid a lil chuck on it - use it like a mini lathe to shorten the nipples to safe length - but then the cone may be too fat - so no big deal to spin it again and take the cone down to fit -----WHATEVER IT TAKES --- make the nipple / cap fit nice and give it some safe clearance under recoil ---so the rear end is fixed ?

front end ??
Lotsa dicscussion here - grease - no grease - balls - boolits - onion skin? - chamfers
 
I like to shoot balls - know nuthin about boolits in a capgun - seems like balls are the problem (balls is always a problem eh)
said in an earlier post I had a misfire once - and it was the only time I didnt use grease up the front so the guys sayin no grease is better are pushin it uphill wid a pointy stick tryin to convince me on that - anyway we need lube up there someplace so we can shoot more than a cylinder ful before we get fouled out . I started off usin waterpump grease - read that in a book someplace - man what a mess!!! pump grease all over the place - paper towells by the bucket load - couldnt hang onto the grip - yeah all that !

eventually common sense prevailed and we graduated to homemade lube - boolit lube like I use in my sharps rifle - 50/50 beeeswax n neatsfoot oil  or variations on that theme - I have one brew a little softer for when its cool out n one stiffer brew for summer - use a wooden spatula / tongue depressor to trowell in on or sometimes we use little cookies of it we make cylinder size just squish em in with yr finger (no mess that way see) those cookies are about an eigth inch thick and they live in the fridgerator till we use em.
Heres some fun we had with lube cookies --- Somewhere my partner in crime (son) read this guru said you guys are nuts puttin the grease up front - should use it as a cookie under the ball - sounded like a good plan too - so I am in the workshop tinkering away and he hangs a target on the fence outside ---boom - boom - boom ..........hey dad! quick come look at this..... runs out side ..... mate yr target is onfire ? yeah lookit this ....boom ....boom ....boom ....... hes shootin tracer rounds outa his 44 army - the lube cookie is stuck to tha ball and on fire - 15 yards of this flaming ball and it sheds the lit cookie onto the paper as it penetrates and sets it alight ....wow ....look what we did ... Didnt work in his walker tho - it had enough boondy to blow the lube cookie into liquid I guess
Wads ? we use lube soaked egg carton (cheep) wads - 2 or 3 of em - in that walker and just a smear of grease over the top - egg carton seemed to work and saved me cutting up a good hat to get felt - walker likes it too - I just drop the sheets of eggcarton in hot lub in a pan and stirr em round until the bubbles stop coming out - then cool em off and punch wads
One pistol had a chamfered cylinder - I liked the way it loaded - no shaved ring but the ball swaged in nice - might do that to the others 
In short I believe the million guys tell me I need grease up front some place and ignore the few who say I dont - based mostly on that one misfire when I forgot the grease - coulda been a huge coincidence ??
     

[PJ Hardtack]

People on this forum have told me that my buddy who shot his Walkers and Old Armys with no grease up front was lucky he didn't have chain fires.

Maybe, but he did it for years with nary a problem. Maybe he should buy lottery tickets .....