when Hollywood at least tries....

[Doug.38PR]

I always enjoy westerns.  But somehow they are just a little better when Hollywood at least tries to be accurate. 

Two of the worst examples are Glenn Fords Man from the Alamo and John Wayne's The Comancheros where everybody on mid 1830s to 1840s are going around packing 1873 Colt SAA and Lever action rifles.


Better movies are ones that at least make an effort.  WB Westerns like Santa Fe Trail have everybody prior to 1865 using 1858 Remington's and 1873 Trapdoor Carbines even if its 1851 and trapdoor carbines are single shot and can pass for sharps.

[Major 2]

Good point and I see where you're trying to go...

However in Santa Fe Trail those are 75 Remington's , as they were in the Horse Soldiers...
And the Trapdoor might    sub for 55 Rifle Carbine in the two films.... I doubt they would pass for Sharps carbines, except to the non- knowing any better movie going crowd...

In the case of The Comancheros, I 100% agree, it was perhaps the worst prop-ed ....92's for Henry's...
In which, the Henry would have been at least 15 years to early, and then using 92's ....
I'd liken it to using AR & AK's in Sands of Iwo Jima or the Longest Day....

I made my living in the 80's and 90's armoring films .... Tried hard we did... Into the West , Tecumseh  Geronimo, Son of the Morningstar. Gettysburg, Glory & the North & South trilogy etc.
 but we also ran up against .... unknowing & caring
bean counters, Directors & Cinematographer's , and un-researched Prop masters.

Coupla examples though I was not involved .... Ride with the Devil  ... Ang Lee Director , like the Brass frame look of the 58 Remington guns that never were, even when he was informed they never existed. ( I did know the armor and what he was up against )

Costner's  Hatfield & McCoys.... Costner himself used a Brass frame Remington  

And one of my biggest pet peeve  ... "Hell On Wheels"  brass frame never never 1860 ...try's to pass for Grizwold and Gunnison
and what worse, the Armor' ( on the the " Making Of " video ) hold the piece up and stated for all to hear " this is a Grizwold & Gunnison revolver " Frankly , he does not have a clue  

I've always been impressed, by Tom Selleck's attempts ...

and to those who might counter , its just a movie, not history ,    I can only say , the Prop master did not do his job justice....
Would "Bonny & Clyde" have been as good "if" they used a  1955 Ford Customline Tudor Sedan   ?

JMHO... steps off the soap box  

[Coal Creek Griff]

Well, said, both of you.

CC Griff

[Advertising]

[Blair]

The sad thing that is most true is that the "money men" in the film industry don't believe most folks that will be watch the program will know what it is they are seeing/watching.
Why?  Because the "money men" don't know. Why would John Joe public know any better than they do?
They tend to forget that it is the money that John Joe Public spends on their garbage that offers them the finances to produce more historical garbage.
My best,
 Blair

[Will Ketchum]

Good point and I see where you're trying to go...

However in Santa Fe Trail those are 75 Remington's , as they were in the Horse Soldiers...
And the Trapdoor might    sub for 55 Rifle Carbine in the two films.... I doubt they would pass for Sharps carbines, except to the non- knowing any better movie going crowd...

In the case of The Comancheros, I 100% agree, it was perhaps the worst prop-ed ....92's for Henry's...
In which, the Henry would have been at least 15 years to early, and then using 92's ....
I'd liken it to using AR & AK's in Sands of Iwo Jima or the Longest Day....

I made my living in the 80's and 90's armoring films .... Tried hard we did... Into the West , Tecumseh  Geronimo, Son of the Morningstar. Gettysburg, Glory & the North & South trilogy etc.
 but we also ran up against .... unknowing & caring
bean counters, Directors & Cinematographer's , and un-researched Prop masters.

Coupla examples though I was not involved .... Ride with the Devil  ... Ang Lee Director , like the Brass frame look of the 58 Remington guns that never were, even when he was informed they never existed. ( I did know the armor and what he was up against )

Costner's  Hatfield & McCoys.... Costner himself used a Brass frame Remington  

And one of my biggest pet peeve  ... "Hell On Wheels"  brass frame never never 1860 ...try's to pass for Grizwold and Gunnison
and what worse, the Armor' ( on the the " Making Of " video ) hold the piece up and stated for all to hear " this is a Grizwold & Gunnison revolver " Frankly , he does not have a clue  

I've always been impressed, by Tom Selleck's attempts ...

and to those who might counter , its just a movie, not history ,    I can only say , the Prop master did not do his job justice....
Would "Bonny & Clyde" have been as good "if" they used a  1955 Ford Customline Tudor Sedan   ?

JMHO... steps off the soap box  

Major, I am sure that you know that Kenny Howell built the guns for the Selleck Westerns.  He is a friend and he use to bring the guns to some of our very private NCOWS shoots.  I actually got to shoot some of them.  The most memorable being the Remington Keene that  was in "Crossfire Trail".  He only had some factory loads and when I shot the 100 yard gone I hit it the first shot but the scope lost it's cross-hairs from the resulting recoil. 

Will Ketchum

[Major 2]

Yes sir Pete

I did, and own a Type I Richards , he had done

One of my favorite Selleck films is "Last Stand at Saber River"  I know several people the were crew on the shoot...
Another is the film you mention "Crossfire Trail "

Both are chocked full of Kenny's handy work , the Evan's , a Halls , Type I's,  the Remington Keene , Spencer carbine , Open Top and
 Schofield Model 3.....

Kenny Howell converted Colt Blackpowder Signature Series 1860 Armys into custom made Colt Richards Conversions.
Three were made for Last Stand a Saber River for Tom Selleck.
 Two were kept in new condition, one Mr. Selleck donated to the NRA Firearms Museum. The second was a backup. That one was donated to the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum where it is currently on display and the third, needed to look slightly used for the rest of the film. Tom Selleck kept this one for himself because it was the one he carried most of the movie.
In May of 2008 it was Auctioned at an estimated price $10,000 – $20,000.




 

[Blair]

I have 5 of Kenny's Cartridge Conversions,
An !851 RM in 38 special
Two 1861's also in 38 special
An 1860 Richards in .44 Colt with a sleeved barrel to .429
And a new Model 1863 Remington "flat recoil shield" also in .44 Colt in a sleeved .429 bore.

I shot .44 S&W Russians in both the 44's but had to turn down the rem dia. of the Russian's down slightly to fit the .44 Colt Chambers. No problems in the .38 specials.

I also have a New Model 1863 Remington and Rogers & Spencer "convertible" cylinders in 6 shot .45 Colt. (Never tried the C&B cylinders in either of these revolvers)
All shoot exceptionally well and to the POA.
My best,
 Blair
I liked the work Kenny did a great deal!

[Will Ketchum]

Kenny sold me his personally restored Colt Bisley in 45 LC. It was one of the sweetest shooting revolvers I have ever owned.  Unfortunately I developed arthritis in my hands and could no longer tolerate the recoil of the Bisley grip so I sold it to another friend of Kenny's.    I also had to sell my other Bisley Colt in 38-40.  Kenny is very talented but I guess he has retired.

He also brought the Evans to the same shoot as the Keene along with the conversions Tom carried in the movie.

Will Ketchum

 

[Major 2]

Kenny was a great source, back when I was doing my thing.... There was a guy in Bolivar just up from Harpers Ferry, I'd get earlier firearms from... like the Halls for North & South 1.
He closed his doors, I had dropped by to see him when on location ( Gods & Generals ) though the shop was there and I could see it was still somewhat equipped ( peering through the glass ) in a phone call though,  he said he was done  health issues.

Kenny, I think sold the Drop-in conversion rights to Taylor's , I think  I recall reading.

BTW,   Pete... the Merwin has moved on , a fellow out in Iowa has been trying to get it up & running.

[Ol Gabe]

M2,
You mentioned "...MH...a fellow out in Iowa is trying to get it up & running."
If it doesn't break any promises, please share his name and company as us fellow Iowegians might be able to help in various venues.
Best regards and keep on, keepin' on!
'Ol Gabe

[Major 2]

Gabe...it was sold to the guy, said he had a guy ( I can ask) but the trail is cold beyond who I sold it to.

[Blair]

Major 2,

I know the owner of the Evan's carbine used in the film "Crossfire Trail".
Just for the record, that is an original Evan's Carbine. (Kenny did not make this firearm.)
If Kenny Howell did any work on it, it was to clean it up a bit, perhaps, and to make up some blank rounds that would cycle through it and fire for the very few shots in the film that show the gun shooting (or, blowing smoke).
My best,
 Blair

[Will Ketchum]

I don't think the good Major meant to imply that Kenny "made" the Evans.  He did do some work on it and he did have it at one of our shoots if I remember correctly.  The most I remember about it was how many times you had to work the lever to get the first round into battery. 

I am also fairly certain this happened prior to "Cross Fire trail" airing and thinking when it did "I shot that rifle"

Will Ketchum

[Blair]

Will,

Thank you.
I think Major 2 knows this, especially coming from me.
However, much can be implied if not explained.
I just wanted to make sure the record was set straight.
Nothing at all like the restoration Kenny did on the Remington Keene Rifle, in that film.
My best,
 Blair

[Major 2]

Yes , to both.... I knew the Evans was an original, and Kenny got it to function 

what I said or at least meant " Both ( as in both Flims )  are chocked full of Kenny's handy work "

Handy work not hand made 


BTW.... Both of you will be happy to know the.... Merwin & Hulbert  LIVES !
I just heard tonight it is functioning in DA with a handmade spring....

[Blair]

Major 2,

On the Merwin... do you know if they used a known mainspring to start with ? Or was it all custom made?
My best,
 Blair

[Shotgun Franklin]

The people who would go to see a Western won't go if it's really historically bad. Then the Hollywood money people refuse to fund Westerns because no one goes to see'm. I like movies to be close but I'm not such a picker as to walk out because a bit of clothing or maybe a gun is a few years out of place. If Hollywood heard from us more they MIGHT make stuff we'd go see but there's no communication going on that I know of.

[Major 2]

Major 2,

On the Merwin... do you know if they used a known mainspring to start with ? Or was it all custom made?
My best,
 Blair

Scratch made as I understand it... I have not seen it, but he has many hours in it.

[Will Ketchum]

Roger, I think I told you that the gun was broke at one of the NCOWS conventions where we had to put cable ties on.  A friend of mine, who should have known better, tried to cock it and it broke.

Pete

[Major 2]

I knew it was broken when I bought it...no complaint from me Pard  ...we knew it was the main Spring and we figured to try to find one,  get one made or find something that might cross with it....

Finding one was fruitless, finding one close did not work either ( though we did get close ) ....The Smith wound up making one from scratch.


" A friend of mine, who should have known better, tried to cock it and it broke. "

Same thing had happened to me at this years convention ( though only the zip tie broke )
The zip ties was there for a reason, as all carry in guns were zip tied at the Reg. desk.
I was amazed he did not know better