45-70 - recommended load

[MONGO-AZ]

Hello y'all.

I've recently acquired a Sharps Rifle (repro by IAB) 28" barrel in 45-70. I'm looking for a basic load for simple target shooting 100-300yd - nothing with a massive kick. I'm used to reloading .45LC (250gr RNFP over 8 gr. of Unique), 12gauge and .38SPC, so I'm not a beginner at reloading, but just a little confused as to where to start.

The manual recommended BP loads or equiv. pressures - I've never loaded BP rounds before - only smokeless. I plan to load both 300gr. and 405gr RN in Rem. cases over standard CCI Lg Rifle primers.

Any adivce on loads, or good websites with data on them? 

[Grapeshot]

Lyman's cast bullet handbook is a good place to start.  When I started with the 45-70 back in the early 1970's, I shot a variety of bullets.  The best at the time in my Navy Arms Rolling Block was a 405 grain cast lead bullet from the Lee 405RNFP mold on top of 16 grains of Unique.

This was a mild and accurate load out of my rifle.  For Blacp Powder I would recomend Pat and Spence Wolf's book, "Loading for the Original .45-70 Trapdoor Rifle and Carbine."  I've seen them advertised in S&S Firearms catalog as well as at www.the45-70book

Good luck.

[MONGO-AZ]

Thanks. I'll try the Lyman book. I'm thinking for right now, I'm going to stick with the light smokeless loads, and leave BP loading ofr a later date.

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[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Mongo,
Can't beat the powder companies data.
IMR Smokeless
Trailboss
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php
IMR series powders
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/4570govt.php

Hodgdon who now owns IMR
Smokeless
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/4570gov.php
And Hodgdon has Triple 7 and Pyrodex data.  You'll find it amazing simple, I did.

Pyrodex They even tell you the over powder wad.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/pyrodex-p-r.php

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I found a noticeable difference in case capacity between makes of case.  (1 grain of powder = 8 grains of brass.)  FC are heaviest (less capacity)  W-W are the lightest (greater capacity), and R-P are between.  For moderate loads don't worry.  I use the headstamp as a reminder of what load is inside, as I use a particular make of brass for each load.  Makes it easy to work up a load in one type and then keep it that way.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Ditto to what Sir Charles says about case capacity.  I only use one brand of cases so I mark the primers with permanent Sharpies.  I use numbers that refer to a data sheet while working up loads and different colors to mark the loads I've settled on.  When resized, the marked primer is gone.  I guess I could write on the bullets, but I just never thought about it.
BB

[Cyrille]

Thanks. I'll try the Lyman book. I'm thinking for right now, I'm going to stick with the light smokeless loads, and leave BP loading ofr a later date.

I'd make durn sure that the gun in question is safe for smokeless powder before trying even a smigin of the smokeless stuff in it
blown guns and bluged barrels are no fun.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

If the manual says Black Powder or equivalent pressure loads, they're talking about the loads for Trapdoor Springfields.  Call the manufacturer if you're unsure.  Many reloading manuals break 45-70 down into three categories.  Trapdoor and antique in good condition,  Modern firearms, and third, heavy loads for new Rugers and such designed to handle very heavy stuff.
Why you'd want to waste all that case space on smokeless is beyond me unless you're breaking in the barrel with jacketed rounds.  And you'll catch flap for that here so don't tell us.
BB

[MONGO-AZ]

Well, it's an IAB Sharps imported by Tri-Star. The user manual refers to it as a "modern copy of a BP firearm, and is INTENDED for BP, Pyrodex, or some other approved BP substitute". The barrel isn't stamped for BP only, and the manual states that smokeless powder loads should not be used that exceed ffactory load specficiations that exceed black powder pressures and velocities.

So given all that, what is the standard fps and psi (cup) for a typical BP round in 45/70 - given that I'm using either a 300gr or 405gr FP cast bullet?

[Delmonico]

It's fine for any 45-70 load that is under the section as OK for trapdoors in good shape, in other words the same as the standard factory loads.  Loads listed as for moden 95 Marlins, Ruger #1 and such might be a bit more that it should have.  All modern reproductios as far as I know are safe with these loads.

Any original firearm should go to a gunsmith that is firmilar with these guns to be checked out as to if they are even safe to fire and with what.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Mongo,
Sounds like the manufacturer discourages smokeless loads.  Sometimes modern steel only marginally strengthens a design.  I will point you to the manufacturers again (My attorney and liability carrier will drop me as a client if I do otherwise.).
Spear lists max pressure for Trapdoors and Sharps rifles at 21k psi.  You can download the Spear online at http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/ReloadingSupplementalDATA/4570_300.pdf
IMR link as posted earlier lists 28k psi max for Trapdoor.
Hodgdon link as posted earlier lists 28k cup max for Trapdoor.
My Lyman and Sierra books were loaned to a friend who's contemplating reloading and wanted to study before he invests so can't check them.
The difference between cup and psi is they are different measuring systems for chamber pressure.  They are not interchangeable or corollary.  Pressure in a load is relative to the powder and components/coa etc. listed in the manual for that load in that particular manual whichever system is used.  Different manuals may have seemingly contradictory data.  Check several manuals and stick to the lower given max until you have the experience to know if you can or should go beyond to the other manuals data.  You may have no need, the most accurate is usually not the hottest load.
Again, if not sure, call the manufacturer and use what they recommend.  Do not change components.  Few Smokeless powders are forgiving and pressure can and will jump to dangerous levels if you do not stay within the bounds the manufacturers give in their manuals.
Hope this points you in the safe direction.
BB

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Hope I didn't sound brisk.  Just trying to keep safe. 
BB

[Delmonico]

Sounds right to me.  Basicly any Repro firearm being sold now is going to have to be safe with SAAMI spec loads in the calibers it is offered in, if SAAMI specs exist for it.  As in it is loaded by major American ammo makers in a smokeless load.  I do belive SAAMI specs exist for all these.

[MONGO-AZ]

No, trust me - no offense taken. Just doing all my research up front before loading - any and all input is welcome. However though - question after looking at the link - wouldn't this fall under Category II Data, since it's a repro 1874 Sharps, not an original - so max load would be 28,000PSI?

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Hey Mongo,
If you check the IMR and Hodgdon links I gave you they list the Trapdoor at 28k.  You can deduce from that.  Maybe Speer is conservative for legal reasons.  I've used IMR data in my Trap with no problem.  Your Sharps has stronger breaching than a Trapdoor.  If you look at a Trapdoor, you'll wonder how that little cam holds it shut!  Take a look at IMR 4064 it might surprise you.  IMR listed a compressed load.
There's plenty of data & numerous loads that are safe in your rifle.  The 28k limit gives you plenty of speed for a lead bullet.  One shouldn't start with a listed "MAX" load, you work up to it and usually stop before you get there.
 You could also shoot Remington brand from boxes marked  "For all rifles."  Though they are jacketed rounds, they recoil less than my BP loads.  But, no smoke = no fun.
BB

[MONGO-AZ]

Accordi g to the manufacturer, smokeless can be used, as long as pressures do not exceed 41,000psi.

I'm thinking of using 5744 - anyone have exp. with that powder?

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Far out!  Did you call or e-mail the manufacturer?  The statement in the manual handicapped you a bit.
I thought about 5744 when they brought it back out but I'm an IMR kind o' guy.  Let us know how it goes.
BB

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Look for Mike Venturino articles.  Mike used a lot of 5744 as a smokeless option in a lot of his ammo/product testing, I think.

[Delmonico]

Never tried it, I like black in 45-70, I knew the Pedersolis were OK with the modern 1895 Marlin loads, but wasn't sure about yours.

[MONGO-AZ]

E-mailed the manufacturer, actually. here's their response (also good for future reference if anyone needs to know the max psi of a repro 1874 Sharps):

"...Due to safety measure we are forced to sign down to use BLACK POWDER but you can use also smokeless powder but not over PSI 41,000.."

I was thinking of IMR 3031 initally, but I found better loading data on Accurate's website for cast lead rounds in both 300 and 405gr bullets using 5744. Plus, it's supposed to have very good ignition (and they used an 1874 in developing the powder) - so I think I'll give that a try first. (Plus IMR is hard to find here...)

Then when the checkbook recovers a little, I might try BP loads - found a good primer on it.