.38 rifles for WB

[Papa Irish]

When I decided to get into cowboy shooting, I bought .38 cal pistols and rifle.  The reason for this being I was setup to load .38 and had a lot of brass.  Going .45 LC would mean new dies, brass, etc.  So along comes Wild Bunch (WB) and I have a mod 97 and a couple of 1911’s in .45 ACP.  I have no rifle that could be used under the rules.  I do not want to buy another gun, nor get into all of the necessary equipment to load .45 LC. 

The bottom line to this is I would like to see .38 rifles allowed in WB.  At local matches here and in my winter grounds we allow .38. We get lots of participants who would not otherwise come to the WB matches.  So SASS how about it. 

[August]

There are few among us who will not take any opportunity to purchase a new firearm.

This issue has been put out to pasture.  In fact, the rules committee is so jaded on this matter, they don't even listen any more.

I've seen a few folks "assault" rules committee members on this, and other issues.  Frankly, I don't blame the committee for being unreceptive.  They've done a lot of work to build the sport over the last ten years.  They've explained their philosophy about power factor and standardization.  They've really held the line on "rules creep", and it's paid off in a level playing field at matches and major championships.

Everyone who shoots Wild Bunch has the equipment to play.  I wish you'd join us.  It is a lot of fun. After all, you have to get a bowling ball from somewhere in order to go bowling.

I understand your feelings.  But, I feel Wild Bunch has benefitted a great deal from clear, uncompromising rules.  The game is fun and challenging because everyone who plays faces the same conditions.  

P.S. You are usually welcome to participate without being a part of the official competition at Wild Bunch events.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My local club has an "Outlaw" class, where ya run what ya brung!

[Advertising]

[PJ Hardtack]

By having a power floor and a minimum calibre for rifles, WB is a return in spirit to the way it ustawas - when we shot ONE pistol in CAS, and it was usually a .44/.45 with a load you stop a bear with.

But, as long as a club admits "Outlaws", everyone gets to play. When I succeed in promoting it at my club, you will be allowed to shoot SxS's and ANY pistol that predates 1916 - P-08's (aka "Lugers), Mauser C-96's, Webleys, Colt NS, etc.

We want to be inclusionary, not exclusionary.

[Grizzly Adams]

Sorry, but I have little use for outfits that offer "Wild Bunch" events and then toss the rules out, and allow folks to "run what you brung." Such practices are an affront to the folks who have worked hard to develop this game, and to those of us who play by the game by the rules.  It is also a disservice to your membership, who never learn the game, and expect everyone else to cater to their wants because their "club does it."

If you don't like the rules, then don't play.
If you can't play by the rules, don't play.
If your not playing by the rules, don't call it WB.
If you want to play, then gun up for it like you do for any other game you want to play!
Adding "outlaw" don't make it right!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sorry, but I have little use for outfits that offer "Wild Bunch" events and then toss the rules out, and allow folks to "run what you brung." Such practices are an affront to the folks who have worked hard to develop this game, and to those of us who play by the game by the rules.  It is also a disservice to your membership, who never learn the game, and expect everyone else to cater to their wants because their "club does it."

If you don't like the rules, then don't play.
If you can't play by the rules, don't play.
If your not playing by the rules, don't call it WB.
If you want to play, then gun up for it like you do for any other game you want to play!
Adding "outlaw" don't make it right!

Don't get me wrong.  No one is trying to change the rules, and no awards are granted. In a local club setting and in the spirit of inclusiveness some deviation is allowed for those who show up and want to shoot and those who can't, for some reason fully comply.  The vast majority of members do comply and are eager to play the game better and more often. Most compete in traditional style and dress in period outfits.

[PJ Hardtack]

I guess you feel the same way about the 'gamers' that turned CAS into what it is today? Pop gun loads, super tuned guns, short stroke kits, reduced capacity BP cases, etc.
This is NOT what the 'Wild Bunch' founders of SASS had in mind. They were IPSC burn outs who wanted to return to something a little more authentic. Regarding equipment eligibility, it once stated in the rules - "If John Wayne would use it, it's OK."

And those of us that would accommodate some to get them involved don't have to refer to it as "Wild Bunch" like Sir Charles said - "Outlaw" class says it appropriately. Local rules and conditions apply. Don't like the rules - don't play!

IPSC dissidents formed IDPA to get back to it's tactical Jeff Cooper roots in philosophy. As long as it gets people shooting, who cares?

Sorry, but I have little use for outfits that offer "Wild Bunch" events and then toss the rules out, and allow folks to "run what you brung." Such practices are an affront to the folks who have worked hard to develop this game, and to those of us who play by the game by the rules.  It is also a disservice to your membership, who never learn the game, and expect everyone else to cater to their wants because their "club does it."

If you don't like the rules, then don't play.
If you can't play by the rules, don't play.
If your not playing by the rules, don't call it WB.
If you want to play, then gun up for it like you do for any other game you want to play!
Adding "outlaw" don't make it right!

[Grizzly Adams]

I guess you feel the same way about the 'gamers' that turned CAS into what it is today? Pop gun loads, super tuned guns, short stroke kits, reduced capacity BP cases, etc.
This is NOT what the 'Wild Bunch' founders of SASS had in mind. They were IPSC burn outs who wanted to return to something a little more authentic. Regarding equipment eligibility, it once stated in the rules - "If John Wayne would use it, it's OK."

And those of us that would accommodate some to get them involved don't have to refer to it as "Wild Bunch" like Sir Charles said - "Outlaw" class says it appropriately. Local rules and conditions apply. Don't like the rules - don't play!

PJ, I have no idea what your talking about.   I know all of the folks who "founded" SASS WBAS and none are IPSC burn outs, and I have not idea what JW has to do with WB!   WBAS is not CAS with a 1911, and it's played with a major power factor.

As for accommodating folks, I have seen that done, but I have NEVER seen any of those so accommodated who decided to pony up, buy the gear, and play the game.  On the contrary, they continue to sit on the side lines and complain about not being able to shoot outside the rules.  As for me, I will not shoot a WB match, or a SASS match, that does not conform with the rules for WBAS/SASS.  That's just me.

In any case, I am not here to argue the issue - the rules are settled, and it is pointless to beat this old horse any longer.  I still maintain that WBAS is a great game, and those that don't play it as designed are missing a lot of fun.

PS:  CAS and WBAS are games, so we are all gamers - some just more than others!

Take care, Amigo.

GA

[PJ Hardtack]

The original founders of SASS were IPSC burnouts who referred to themselves as the 'Wild Bunch'.

If my reference to JW regarding equipment eligibility was too subtle for you, you haven't been around long enough to remember when it was a 'one pistol' thing, not two, and the .44/.45 was King.

I just re-audited the IPSC Black badge course and the power factor for 'major 'in Standard division is 170, not 150 as it is for WB; page 13 in the rules.

As for taking care, I always do .... ;>)

PJ, I have no idea what your talking about.  I know all of the folks who "founded" SASS WBAS and none are IPSC burn outs, and I have not idea what JW has to do with WB!  WBAS is not CAS with a 1911, and it's played with a major power factor.



PS:  CAS and WBAS are games, so we are all gamers - some just more than others!

Take care, Amigo.

GA

[Grizzly Adams]

Have it as you will, PJ.  I have only been shooting SASS since 1989, so I guess I have not been around long enough!  LOL!

In any case, I stand behind my opinion - and you are entitled to yours.  Just having a discussion here, no need to get your feathers up! 

I will now move on, as I fear I have worn out my welcome, and do not wish to further antagonize any one.  Got to go load up the trailer and get packed for Buffalo Stampede!

Adios, Amigos.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Griz;  No you haven't worn out your welcome.  You spoke out about the other side of the discussion.  Yeah, I am an IPSC burnout so I also know first hand.

The decision on which way to go is up to each club, for local purposes.

P.S; Also a buckskinner for many years.  CAS is a very comfortable synthesis of both fields

[PJ Hardtack]

No offence taken or implied.

[Garand]

As for accommodating folks, I have seen that done, but I have NEVER seen any of those so accommodated who decided to pony up, buy the gear, and play the game.  On the contrary, they continue to sit on the side lines and complain about not being able to shoot outside the rules.  As for me, I will not shoot a WB match, or a SASS match, that does not conform with the rules for WBAS/SASS.  That's just me.

I've seen the same thing done with clothing. You let the new shooter shoot a club match in baseball cap and work boots once and next time he shows up, without appropriate clothes he gets pissed " cause you let me shoot last time".

[Papa Irish]

I’m 71 years old.  I have shot competitively in everything from smallbore to NRA highpower starting when I was 11.  If it burns powder I want to do it.

I don’t want to start a flame war.  My point was I don’t want to spend the money for a new rifle, new reloading setup, etc. when I have everything else I need but a .40 cal rifle.

[PJ Hardtack]

That's pretty lame. I'm a few months shy of 71 myself, cancer survivor and active in several shooting disciplines. Having lived through a lot and survived, I'm HAPPY to go out and buy another gun as I expect I'll be using it for at least another decade - or more. 'Sides, it pisses off the antis when someone my age buys a gun.

If you really want to shoot the event, BORROW a rifle! People would be happy to loan a septuagenarian a rifle, even if you outshoot them with their own gun.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I’m 71 years old.  I have shot competitively in everything from smallbore to NRA highpower starting when I was 11.  If it burns powder I want to do it.

I don’t want to start a flame war.  My point was I don’t want to spend the money for a new rifle, new reloading setup, etc. when I have everything else I need but a .40 cal rifle.

Doesn't stop me from buying stuff.  Wife doesn't know (I hope) but keeps a close eye, and son says "more to inherit, Yeehah!"
As P.J. says temporary loan or use of a rifle at a match should be easy to arrange.

PJ & Papa;  I'm only a few months younger than you "Young Guns"  

OBTW;  I avoided sending my '97 away for work altering the magazine to 6 rounds.  I found that cutting cases to 2 3/8 inches and roll crimping allows a full mag load!

[Papa Irish]

Thanks for the comments.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My last post was severely bowdlerized.  There was no profanity, it was critical of Grizzly Adams attitude and gave a much more extensive explanation of my background.  I can am disappointed and will not be visiting this forum again.   

Papa; Please don't take this too personally.  We are trying to provide a full explanation of the issues which have caused several shooting games some anguish in the past and trying to offer practical solutions.  There is plenty of room here and I hope you stay&play.

[PJ Hardtack]

Ditto! We old timers gotta keep things happening and keep ,the kids in line.

[Jefro]

Howdy Papa, when Happy Jack and Evil Roy first explained why they wanted to keep it .40+ with the rifle I sorta agreed. The WB intended it to be a big bore class with a power factor. This makes knockdown targets a part of a match if desired. This also means you can now start or end a stage with any firearm as the timer will pick up the shots. After having now shot WB (and MD) for over two years I'm leaning towards the .38 with 158gr that meets the power factor.
 A couple of us loaded up some .38 158gr that meet the power factor, along with some .45 200gr to see what the timer would pick up. The .38 158gr through the a 73 made as loud a report as the .45 200gr in a Marlin, the point is you still have to hold the timer in a manner to make sure and pick up the last shot from a rifle. And the .38 158gr has been able to handle any of our knockdowns, plate racks...etc
   I know the WB doesn't think they are really losing that many shooters.......IMHO they are. There are plenty of folks that will not shoot WB locally even if the .38 is allowed, they don't want to shoot locally and then not be able to when they travel. None of the ones I've talked to want to be scored with .40+ crowd, or for overall match, they just want to shoot. Yes we could just buy another rifle and be in compliance. But those of us that also have a wife/kids to outfit already have four or more rifles, another one just may not be in the budget. I have a 44/40 so I can make the grade, but Heather requires a much shorter length of pull, she can barley operate my 97.
    For now we should support WB shooting and help it to grow. Locally we can still have our WB/Pike matches, this is where it all begin. At our local club we have an Open category, this is a good way to bring in new shooters. If we want to shoot sanctioned matches then we can either buy another rifle or borrow one.
  Either way I'm still very greatfull of the efforts of Happy Jack, Pecos Clyde, Evil Roy, and Texas Jack Moralis for coming up with a set of rules that are straight forward and easy to follow. I ain't gonna say never, remember a few years ago they said an internal hammer shotgun like the Model 12 would never be allowed. Heck we still can't get FCGF in SASS Good Luck

Jefro Relax-Enjoy