My new (to me) Thompson Hawken....

[readygirl]

 Found it on my latest visit to my favorite gun shop...just couldnt leave it there, and have been wanting one for a while. Cant wait to shoot it. Thursday's are primitive night at my local range, i've been going on a regular basis, shooting my 1858 Remington (replica) I think it's beautiful...just wanted to share....

[St8LineLeatherSmith]

Nice looking rifle!

[hellgate]

What caliber?

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[St8LineLeatherSmith]

lookin at the rammer it looks like a .50 but pichers can decieve.

[readygirl]

What caliber?

    It is a .50, Iv'e never seen a Hawken all blacked out, without the brass. Seems to be like that from the factory...?

[rickk]

I believe that is actually a Thompson Renegade.

It has steel furniture instead of brass, no patch box, and a 1" barrel instead of 15/16".  I am not sure if the Renegade was ever made as a kit gun. It may have only been the Hawkins that was available as a kit.

My Hawkins I build from a kit, and my Renegade was a factory assembled gun.

The Renegades  were made in .50 and .54 caliber and some were made in .56 caliber smoothbore as well (for states where rifled ML's aren't/wernt legal).

The Renegade was a "user gun"... the patchbox was removed and the furniture was made of steel to reduce cost as few who bought one simply to hunt with them during a ML season cared about such things.. I am guessing that the slightly bigger barrel was made so that the model could easily accommodate the .56 caliber smoothbore option.

FWIW, it is probably drilled and tapped to accept the T/C scope base as well.

For best accuracy on these things you want a really tight fitting ball. I am using a .495 ball with a .015 patch in the .50 caliber for instance. Be aware that I am no longer using the original factory barrel in that one. The factory barrel has shallower groves and might want a .010 patch if I recall correctly. Said tight fitting ball wont be easily rammed with the factory ramrod. An aftermarket rod is the way to go. For my .50 caliber I use a 3/8" stainless rod with a brass muzzle protector. For my .56 caliber, I simply use a 1/2" wooden dowel that I saturated the ends of with epoxy to make the ends stronger. I use a short ball starter in both cases to start the ball.


Rick

[readygirl]

 Thanks Rick...for all the info...  and apon closer inspection..it does say RENEGADE on the barrel...

[Buzzard II]

Good luck with the T/C side lock!  I still shoot a T/C White Mountain carbine in .50 cal with either 80grs.  3F Goex or 2F KIK. XTP bullet in a sabot works for me out to 100 yds.  Too many trees for a longer shot.  I tried the Knight and T/C inlines and went back to the carbine. 

[Dick Dastardly]

For a front stuffer, go with a bullet that hauls enough lube to get the job done.  Sadly, there's not yet a .50 Cal Big Lube®LLC bullet to do your duty.  Watch my website and this could become an available mold.

DD-MDA

[steve75]

I have a flintlock Thompson Hawken.  The rifle is an absolute joy to shoot.  My first black powder weapon.   

[Pay Dirt Norvelle]

Very nice TC.  You will  like it. 

[rifle]

The Hawkens rifling twist is 1-48. The White Mountain I fergit. The Renegade I fergit but thunkit's 1-48.

Toss up as to whether the rifles shoot conicals well. Some do and some don't. I like the idea of the Green Mountain conversion barrels made fer the guns that have the fast twist barrels.

Nothing wrong with shootin balls though. They do the job well. L&R Locks make a lock that goes right in the rifles fer the authentic non-coil spring/smoother locks. There's really nothing wrong with the Thompson locks. They may be a lil rougher but they stay workin.

The design of the Thompsons is more agin to the English Sporting Rifles. Huntin rifles they really are. The true Hawken design is my favorite. I'd go fer the Lyman Great Plains Rifle myself.

I've made Hawkens that are authentic as I could make them. Beautiful rifles. I have a field grade I made fer myself that is a true Hawken in the design but has the 45/70 barrel adapted to it and fires the Lyman Govt. bullet 500 grainer. It has the 1-22 twist to the rifling. Accurate and easy to load. It has a bullet swag with it sos the bullets get lubed and pushed base first thru the swag to impart the rifling engraved on the bullet so it loads real easy.


Anyway....I've taken the fast twist barrels made by Ed Rayle and put them on the Hawkens and the Renecade. Made them 40 or 45 caliber long range guns. Rifling .004 deep and fast twist. The accuracy is amazing.

The accuracy of the Hawkens and the Renecade can be amazing too. Depends with that 1-48 rifling twist. It's funny the way all the rifles are the same(Thompson) with the same rifling twist but....some shoot balls and conicals well...some shoot balls well and not conicals and some shoot conicals and not balls and some shoot bad with balls or conicals.


That said.,...when I had my Muzzle Loader rifle shop and people came out with problems I was known to close the shop fer a while and take the people out on the farm and shoot the guns to see what was up. Never did I fail in gettin the right load fer any of those rifles(Thompsons) to shoot well.

I did get tired of trying to explain to folks thast a 54 cal. rifle shootin a saboted 45 cal. pistol bullet would not shoot well because there was too much plastic and it would strip thru the riflinhg.I'd take a nice huge lead 54 cal. slug and shoot the rifles and they would shoot them well or...use the good ole ball and patch and they would shoot well.

The rifling was designed fer the patch and ball and the rifles shot best and more often with the balls. The conicals would shoot better in the 54's and might shoot well in the others depending on the rifle.

I could always find the right load fer the guns since once you know the guns and the loads they like it's easy. First load right off the bat shoots well if you put the right load in there.

Lots of shooters and good ones too would get a flinch from the black powder and the flame and smoke and all. I would load fer the person...give them the rifle to shoot and...then leave the cap off and let the person see how bad they flinched. Then they knew it was them and not the gun.

Anywhoooo...I have the Italian copy of the Thompson. The ones Cabelas sell as the Traditional Hawkens. Cheaper put still danged good rifles the Italian ones are. Mine is the old kind when they had the chrome lined bores. When Cabelas took over all the rifles Investarm would make the distributors couldn't get the rifles to sell me at dealer price. I sold lots of those Italian and Thompson Center rifles but...the Italian ones dried up. Cabelas has them all now I thunk. Investarms makes the Lyman great Plains rifle too. The same locks and barrels(modified a lil between the Hawken and the Great Plains rifles) aare on the Investarms rifles like the Hawken and the Great Plains rifles.

Anyway...and this is true...the founder of Thompson Center Rifles manufacturing watched the movie, Jeremiah Johnson", with Robert Redford and from that had the idea to create and sell here in the US the Hawken rifles. He didn't make them exactly authentic lookin but made them beautiful rifles.

The Thompson Center Hawkens are Beautiful rifles. My Italian Hawken is too but nnot as refined but still beautiful. I blacked the brass on my Italian brand fer huntin purposes but knew danged well the brass black would weat off and it did but it is like aged brass now and not shiny and givin me away when deer huntin.I killed mulktiple deer with myn  Italian Hawken with the good ole ball and patch in 50 caliber.

I prefer the 54 fer a lil more range but never shot a deer past 100 yards and only did that very few times.

I didn't like the nose cap on the forend so I rasped it and shaped it more like the Lyman Great Plains and did the poured pewter nose cap thing with the entry thimble fer the rod. Adapted the more authentic trigger guard and sights too. Fancy Hawken sights with the step elevater design and...it's a purty gun like the Thompson Center but a lil different.

See what I'm gettin at? The Thompsons can be a great foundation fer a few lil spif ups. The trigger guard on the Hawken TC is cool though and I would leave that alone.

I have,and have had fer years, the Green Mountain fast twist shallow grooved barrel that adapts to my Hawken or the Thompson Center. I never  put it on my gunthough since it can shoot the balls and the conicals like a champ. It has the deeper grooved 1-48 twist to the rifling too. See? It defies logic bout rifling twists and grooves and all fer the rifle todo that and doit consistantly. It does it though. The TC Hawkens and Renegads can too but it depends on the rifles.  They defy logic also at times.

My ole Hawken Italian rifle can take any lead slug type conical that I size to .502 sos it loads straight and easy and put them in a grape fruit size group at 200 yards. 

The US made Hawkens types and the Italian made types have different size bores. The US Hawken has the .495 bore and the Italian has the .500 bore. That's why the Italian takes the .495 balls and the US Hawken takes the .490 balls. The .010 or the .015 patch works in either. Get it? The balls are good to go when patched and they are .005 under the land diameter.

Sizing the conicals to .502 fer the Italian makes sense knowing that and then....sizing the conicals fer the US Hawken to .497 at .002 larger then the lands diameter would let the conicals load easy and expand with the powder blast to fill the grooves. The Hornady  Great Plains bullets with the hollow base are good fer that. Sos are the Lee Improved Minni's with the hollow bases.

 Then newer inlines and maybe the side locks have the QLA muzzles. Reamed to let the bullets go in straight and then load straight since they are supported in the muzzle to begin with. Clymer or Manson make reamers the same as used by Thompson Center(at least they were made in the past) to put the QLA system to the muzzles of the guns that don't have it. QLA means quick load accurizer. Wonder where TC got the idea fer that QLA?

Later when the patent ran out all the muzzleloader rifle manufactures use the muzzle modification. In the old days they funneled the muzzles so the patch and balls stayed in there while loading and runningn or whatever.

Later the false muzzle and the reamed muzzle came into voque fer shootin long conicals bullets with the fast twists rifle barrels.

The QLA wasn't a new idea when TC started it.

[rickk]

The T/C rifling is a compromise twist. Not perfect for either balls nor conicals, but sort of OK for both, at least at practical BP deer hunting range, which I personally would put at about 50 yards max.


Mine currently has a Green Mountain 1/72 twist barrel on it... it groups about an inch C-C at 100 yards using very tightly fitting round balls. I do not believe the original barrel could do even 2" groups.

Rick

[rifle]

I remember back in the day the TC Hawken had the rep fer at least doin 4 in. at 100 paces. The 4 in. was the min. to meet looking for accuracy.

Some rifles for some reason would do better than the 4 in. criteria. All the same but some were crappy and some were real shooters. Must have been how consistant the groove and bore diameters were in the rifling.

I'd have to say....the Green Mountain barrels are really good and I wouldn't try to doubt some saying they can shoot 1 in. groups at a 100 paces with one.

I made a Hawken fer a big tall guy once that had a long trigger pull and the barrel was 1 in. across the flats and 36 in.,long. It was  the round ball twist and in 58cal.

That rifle could shoot really good out to 400 paces and beyond. That big 58 ball got the guy some deer with NO problem. I tested it before stating it was finished. Sighted in with the file at 100 yards dead on.  Plinked a ground hog(dig holes in the farm fields) out to around 400 paces. Raised er up a lil and "no more hole digger". Lucky shot but....the barrel wouldn't have been so lucky if it weren't the Green Mountain.

That guy loved the rifle. Maple full figured wood. Not authentic to a Hawken but....it was really good fer lookin at. Allironfurniture except fer the pewter nose cap and German Silver barrel wedge etchusions. Two barrel wedges fer an authentic type Hawken.

I made the same guy a Hawken with the fast twist barrel fer shootin conical bullets. It was a Howard Kelly made barrel. Good barrel. When I sighted the new sights at 66 yards I actually put three bullets in the same hole. Don't do that much ever. It was a real shooter.


Moral of this story? The barrel makes all the difference in the world.

Anywhoooo....the TC barrels can be good ifin yer a lil lucky and can "shoot". Ya gotta have the luck to get a good lot of powder too though. The powder makes a difference as does the lube you use. The lube is an important aspect of the load chain.Bad lube...rifle doesn't shoot as good as it can.

I can still remember back in the 70's sometime ago when I walked into a small shop in a farming county and saw for the first time the venerable Thompson Center Hawken. I was struck with the fever of black powder rifle shooting and after all these years it's still one of my favorite things. I can still see that TC Hawken hanging up on the wall and asking if I may checkit out. The double set triggers intriqued me. Ireally like the doubleset triggers. Not so much the single set triggers