Author Topic: Substitute powders  (Read 10608 times)

Offline ZVP

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Substitute powders
« on: April 06, 2011, 10:41:44 PM »
 Having finally located some "real" GOEX BP Iam dissapointed. I found no appreciable advantage to using "real" BP no velocity increase or better ignition. I got more fouling andhad a dirtier bore more quickly.
 Here in my part of California it is difficult to get real BP but Substitutes are more available at gun shops.
 I think that I will stick with Pyrodex as it is the most available and the second lowest fouling. 777 is the cleanest Substitute.
 Clean-up between cylinders is easy, just a little squirt of Windex and a quick wipe-down of the cylinder base pin get the gun ready for another couple cylinders full.
 At the end of the day, the Substitutes clean-up easier than real Black Powder.
 Maybe the fact that my revolvers are Spanish Reproductions is why the substitutes work better through the guns than GOEX. Perhaps the steels and the rifling cut is responsible for the more difficult clean-ups Maybe modern steels foul more?
 ZVP

Offline Durango Flinthart

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 10:53:53 PM »
No, you just discovered the joy of using the powder that was used by our forefathers. No advantage but a whole lot of nostalgia :o
When the cambrian measures were forming they promised purpetual peace. They swore if we gave up our weapons the wars of the tribes, they would cease, but when we disarmed they enslaved us and delivered us bound to our foe and the Gods of the copybook headings said, "Stick to the devil you know." Kipling

Offline August

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 10:46:01 AM »
I shot with a guy at a two day match last year who used pyrodex in all his guns.  Man, oh man, oh man does that stuff STINK.

I ended up leaving the posse when it was his turn to shoot.

Substitute powders are a vexation to the spirit.

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #3 on: Today at 09:58:50 PM »

Offline Mako

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 11:16:37 AM »
Stink is good, let's you know you're alive.
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
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Offline rickk

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 11:34:04 AM »
The smell that is in the air after after shooting black powder reminds me of a happy day.

Even smelling of sulfur long after I left the rang makes me continue to feel happy.

I've used it, but the acidic aroma of burned  Pyrodex I don't find as enjoyable.

Offline Abilene

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 01:52:59 PM »
Besides the smell, the substitutes don't boom as much as BP, and much less flame.  I have said it before:  Substitutes are easier, and they are fun.  BP is funner.

Offline wildman1

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 03:34:33 PM »
Subsitute Powders? Next thing ya know there'll be substitute food. Might as well just quit and go toes up.  ;) ;D WM
WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 04:51:07 PM »
Substitute BP is like substitute love. There is a differnce for those who want the REAL thing.  ;D :D ;)

Offline Deadeye Dick

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 04:52:53 PM »
One of the things I and others have experienced with substitutes is the hang fire concern. The click boom doesn't do anything for me. Never had a hang fire with black powder. Have not used Pyrodex on my cap and ball revolvers, but when I first started shooting muzzle loaders I noticed considerable Pyrodex hang fires on my Great Plains deer rifle. My deer hunting friends have had the same problem. No hang fires, the big boom, fire, smoke, good smell and ease of clean up convinced me.
Black powder is the only way to go. As FCK says BP is the REAL thing.
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Offline Drayton Calhoun

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2011, 08:00:26 PM »
I love the smell of black powder in the morning. It smells like...well, rotten eggs and Gawd knows what, but Lordy, what a wonderful smell it is!
The first step of becoming a good shooter is knowing which end the bullet comes out of and being on the other end.

Offline Blackpowder Burn

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2011, 08:34:49 PM »
If you're having to wipe down the cylinder every stage, your not using the right bullet/lube combination.  I shoot BP in 45LC and 44-40 and shoot a complete two-day match without cleaning the guns.  Properly sized bullet and lots of soft BP compatible lube.

There is no substitute for the real thing.
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Offline ZVP

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Re: Low life answers
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2011, 08:48:49 PM »
 Well I knew I'd get some replies but some were downright CRUEL!
 WHT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
 I thought that "in the spirit of the game" we were supposed to be "Corcdal"  towards eachother even if our opnions differ?
 High School mentality is alive and well here on the CAS Forum.
 I guess I will have to put my Tennis Shoes on and just take my Pyrodex to the range and forget what I herd was the comradery amongst Cowboys!
 I am sure since the internet is a faceless and impersonal tool, and it's possible to flame anyone you wish to eh?
 OK have your fun  in any cowardly fashon that you wish but remember your clowning only reflects on your own character...
 I just read from some SMALL characters!
 It was really funny, NOT!
 Two honest answers in the whole string?
 Thanks for showing me who the "Real" cowboys are!

 ZVP

Offline wildman1

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2011, 09:11:33 PM »
I think what we are trying to tell you is that shooting BP is FUN for most of us I have been shooting BP for 30 years and recently started shooting it in my Ruger .357. I can't count the number of people that have approached me on the range and wanted to know what I was shooting and then wanted to know if they could try it. I read all of those threads and posted one myself and DO NOT CONSIDER ANY OF THEM TO BE CRUEL OR MEAN.  I think you would have to be fishing very hard to find anything cruel in any of them. WM
WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2011, 09:43:45 PM »
Gentlemen..in a word........Chill!!!!!

Now then:
Quote
Welcome to the chamber for discussing all aspects of the use of Black Powder and its substitutes in CAS. Reloading, guns and, shooting techniques...if it's about makin' smoke we talk about it here!

The above is the opener for the Dens Link from the main page. 'S been there since the day the Den was created. Substitute black powders are just as valid a subject here as black powders. There are many reasons to shoot subs, and we will NOT belittle them here. Pros & cons may be debated, but out & out belittling is poor form all around...from BOTH sides!

......and I would remind all of our stance on mention of smokeless powders here.

Having said that, I am currently trying to recuperate from a bout with pneumonia. It is NOT one of the most fun things I have had to deal with and leaves me a bit short tempered.Please forgive if you feel I have overstepped the bounds of good moderator-ship and chalk it up too a high fever. I'm going back to bed now...........
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 12:41:58 AM »
My Dear ZVP -

please do not think too badly of the prior posters; I think I can safely say that they mean little harm but are "funnin with ya" and trying to relate the sense of "historicity" so many of us like to enjoy when one has played this C&B "cowboy" game long enough.

I must admit sometimes the repartie seems a tad harsh to newcombers unfamiliar with these gentlemen and their "turn of phrase".

Why, after reading one long thread at one time I thought Delmonico and Mako must be mortal enemies!  :o

To address your original post -

Many of us who have been shooting traditional smokepoles long before this cowboy game remember the original hype around Pyrodex. We  found that it would not ignite in our flintlocks, and would often foul or somehow clog in the labyrinth path of our patent-breech caplock plains rifles. If one believed the original marketing hype and did not immediately clean one's rifle or smoothbore several folks reported finding horrible and irrevocable corrosion after perhaps a week or so (depending upon climate and  local weather)

That alone (e'en tho over 20 years in the past) has left a bad taste in the mouths of many.

But regarding specifics ..... Ummmm .... I'm afraid you are basically right, Goex gives more fouling and less velocity than Pyrodex.

I have found that Fouling and binding in a revolver (especially a Remmy repro)  is an unfortunate fact of life with most true BP , (except for Swiss) -  and even with Pyrodex there is some. However, there have been worse, as I remember a particularly bad batch of Elephant.... but I digress.

Pyrodex does clean up (visually at least - more in a minute) more easily than Goex. And it *is* readily available! True BP *is* getting harder and harder to come by in stores.

 If you are ever able to lay your hands on some Swiss you will experience what the best "sporting grade"  blackpowder was like "in the day". So clean burning it leaves barely a trace of residue, consistancy that is to dream about and excellent velocities.  just google "swiss powder"

Technically, I believe you are correct in your supposition that modern steels are to some extent to blame. The old wrought-iron barrels literally seem to have an abillity to take on a property we call "seasoning" and while they wear quicker, they do not seem to foul or corrode as quickly as steel ... perhaps it has to do with the carbon content . I have some old wrought iron I have blacksmithed and a number of old original wrought-iron barrels and can attest to my experience in regards to wrought irons corrosion resistance when compare to steel (your milage may vary).

In the end, while I sing the praises of "true black", for everyday Cowboy type shooting I admit to using Pyrodex in my C&B  pistols (where i have had no ignition problems) and reserving the harder to get  BP for my muzzleloaders and Sharps Falling block caplock where it really matters.

However - please be aware of the corrosive differences! Pyrodex has a particular issue with regards to the "perchlorate" compounds in the mix. This is similar (if not identical) to the old "corrosive perchlorate primers" that old timers were always concerned about in surplus or "old" cartridges. Unless you are meticulous about cleaning your revolvers, the perchlorate residue can remain unseen, causing microscopic corrosion that might eventually eat right through the cylinder walls.

A craftsman of fine muzzleloading rifles once dissected a rifles breech and breechblock to discover that perchlorate erosion had eaten a channel nearly through the barrel wall.

yhs
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 12:47:06 AM »
.... I am currently trying to recuperate from a bout with pneumonia. It is NOT one of the most fun things I have had to deal with and leaves me a bit short tempered.Please forgive if you feel I have overstepped the bounds of good moderator-ship and chalk it up too a high fever. I'm going back to bed now...........

Ah My Dear Cuts -
having fought that battle my I empathise....
yhs
prof marvel
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and
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Offline Blackpowder Burn

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 08:04:02 AM »
May I also ask if you've investigated mail-order delivery of black powder?  I don't know what the laws regarding that are in the People's Republic of California, but you can have it shipped to your door from folks like Powder Inc. for as low as $14 per pound, including hazmat fees and shipping charges.  That's probably half the price of Pyrodex.
SUBLYME AND HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT
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Offline Noz

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 09:08:52 AM »
I have a badly rusted shotgun from using Pyrodex and thinking I would clean it as I do black powder. I waited too long to get back to it.
I bought a "pound" actually 14 oz of 777, used it at one shoot, sold the remainder to someone that likes it.

That said, I got a deal on 6 pounds of Pyrodex at $6 a pound and that is being used in my shotgun. I clean the shotgun on the range if it is going to be longer than 24 hours before I get it home. A squirt of moosemilk and a boresnake pull will hold it for later attention.

Offline ZVP

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 02:56:31 PM »
 Everyone,
 My thanks to many of you for trying to answer my post in a gracious manner. It's noted and truely appreciated!
 I'll let the ribbing go Just caught me off guard as I am trying to learn all this.
 Won't be so thin skinned  from here on...
 
 Yesterday I finally got some shooting time in and burnt up a Flask full of GOEX thru my .44 Full size 1858 Remington.
 I had the weirdest thing happen! It took 3 caps to set off 3 different cylinders! That's 9 caps twhere 3 should have sufficed.
 The Charge was 30 gr, individually measured topped off with treated wads and .451 lead balls.. The weather was blustry (but not raining) and this was the only time it has ever happened. I didn't fire cps to clear oil before I initally loaded. I use Break-Free as a preservative.
 I changed procedures adding a Cornmeal filler (to ensure powder compaction) which is what I think the problem is. I even passed a nipple prick through on the first set of misfires.
 Inbetween loadings I fired 6 caps to clear things out and had no further problems.
 I use Remington Caps since they fragment and fall off so clean from my guns. They don't give me problems even with Colt style actions!
 I even tried dropping my loaqd to  22 gr of GOEX with a Cornmeal filler and patches below the ball. All shots were sucessfull.
 
 I have been reading up on Paper Cartriges and have noted that they contain around 22 gr in .44 and 18gr in .36. These seem to be pretty anemic considering my standard load for .36 is 22 grains and in .44 I use 30-3 (in the Steel Remingtons).
 Did the ammunition makers always use such low powered paper cartriges, even for the Army? I would think that when  fighting for one's life they would go for full charges! I thought the army had a Mil Spec standard? I am supposing that the paper wrapper takes up a lot of powder space?
 To address the metals used in todays barrels, I have noticed that my barrels "seasoned" quickly. within perhaps 100 shots the bores took on a smooth apperance at the rifling and the pistols accuracy stablized. Accuracy remained at that standard and even the balls pressed smoother into the cylinders. This I attribute to a case hardening (fire treated) of the chamber surfaces. Todays steels are much stronger and safer for the pressures BP creates and I feel much better shooting a Reproduction with modern steels than I would endangering an old origonal, Thery're probably better left to being collectors items and Reproductions are todays "Shooters".
 Once again, I appreciate the very gentlemanly-like replies from many of you!
 ZVP

Offline rickk

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Re: Substitute powders
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2011, 03:09:56 PM »
Now, I will throw out one thing about Pyrodex worth throwing out...

I have a 50 caliber Hawkins style rilfe. 1-72 twist Green Mountain Barrel. Lyman tang sight.

I spent an entire summer working up a load for it. I shot it every Sunday for 3-4 hours.

I tried both 2F BP and Pyrodex.  I tried .490 and .495" balls. I tried 10/15/20 thousandths patches.

The load that worked the best was 70 grains of Pyrodex RS with a .495" swaged ball and .015 patches. A rubber hammer and an all brass starter was needed to get the balls started of course.

 I could not get BP to come close to it.

Off soild X-sticks it shoots 1.5" groups all day.

I loved the way the gun shot, but I really hated it on days when I was shooting into the wind. I remember on those days pulling the trigger, holding my breath, standing up and taking a few steps before inhaling.

But other than the burning in my throat when I breathed the stuff it worked very well.

 

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