Real Pocket Pistols...

[St. George]

Just a short note to illustrate the fact that you can still find "real" pocket pistols out there in the woodwork.

In the past few months, I wound up with three additions to my collection of odds and ends.
1.  S&W 2d Model, 2d issue, spur-trigger .38S&W - built in 1888.
2.  S&W Safety Hammerless in .32S&W.
3.  H&R "Vest Pocket" in .32S&W - a truly ugly little revolver - with no front sight and hammerless, to boot.
No front sight was ever installed, and it's so ugly, it's really nice.

These things are out there in drawers and on tables and in many cases they're worth picking up.

Good, solid makers include, but are not limited to:
Colt, Iver Johnson, Smith & Wesson, Harrington & Richardson, Forehand and Wadsworth, Merwin, Hulbert, Webley, Hopkins & Allen and Frank Wesson.

Look at a couple of things before you do decide to buy:

Overall condition - look at evidence of abuse - but don't pay much attention to loss of plating, as that's common and can be re-done, and if you don't want to do that - you can Simichrome or Wenol everything enough to mask its loss.
Look instead for big dings and pitting and burred screw heads and remember - spare parts are found in other people's guns...

Cylinder lockup - you want it to be tight and not to wobble.
In many cases, these guns were played with by grandkids after their daily carrying duties were over (I once knew of kids who played with a Dance Brothers...), and they can play rough.

You want something that'll lock up reasonably - especially when you hold the hammer down as if fired.
That's the tightest lockup you'll see in a revolver, so if there's a lot of play - you can think about it for parts.

Barrel-Frame Lockup - Has to be tight.
Look for cracking at the point of joining.
In many cases, tightening the screw is all that's needed, but if it's not able to be done - think "parts".

Condition of Grips - Hard Rubber grips can be a challenge to repair, but it can be done.
Better when you don't have to.

Once you've located your prospective companion - clean it - but carefully and pay attention to how it assembles and disassembles - Dave Chicoine's book - "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" is invaluable here.

As far as ammunition is concerned - BP will always work, but factory smokeless will work as well in later revolvers, but don't get carried away - these little guns were never meant for the shooting stresses of C&WAS, or the pressures of modern reloaded ammunition.

As to .22's - the really short .22CB Cap (NOT the CCI - in the .22 Short case) will safely drive a Conical Ball from its barrel and not increase pressures.
Standard Velocity .22 Shorts are about as "heavy" a round as you'll ever want for later revolvers, but I'd certainly get some of the CB Caps first.
Better yet, just pick them up to add to a vest pocket as an accouterment, if you're concerned about firing them.

Good Luck.



Scouts Out!

[Will Pluggum]

This is good stuff St. George, thanks for info.  Are you saying that H&R is sooooo ugly only a cowboy action shooter could love it!

[St. George]

You kind of have to see it - the barrel measures just 1 1/8", and what with it being hammerless, the entire thing looks sort of "circular" - for lack of more accurate terminology.
On the other hand - it locks up tight and the tip of the hammer is knurled so as to facilitate single-action aimed fire.


The Old West was full of interesting small revolvers, derringers and single-shots - some of which earned the sobriquet "Suicide Specials" and some of which turned out to be well-built and designed for service.

Scouts Out!

[Advertising]

[Will Pluggum]

I recall seeing the H&R pistol your describing in an article in The American Riflemen.  Harrington and Richardson (H&R) is  a name many  people are not familier with but they have been around for over a century and have made thier contributions to early American arms developement.  They are currently selling a line of single shot rifles under the NEF (New England Firearms) banner who's roots can be traced back over 130 years.  Nothing fancy, but solid, reliable and affordable.....and always American made.  Not many early American gun makers survived that long.

[Will Ketchum]

St. George, where did you find the date of manufacture for the S&Ws?

I just picked up a S&W just like your Number 1.  I'm not sure that it has ever been shot.  There is slight pitting in the nickle plate and the let grip is discolored rto a brown but the right grip is as black and unworn as a new gun.  It locks up as tight as any revolver I have ever handled.

I would also like to find out the dates of manufacture for my 2 New Model Number 3s.

Will Ketchum

[St. George]

Serial Numbers...

If you've got a serial number you're wondering about - let me know what it is and I'll see what I can do.
I've got an extensive reference library that features some odd things, and I'll be happy to help.

I'll need manufacturer, serial number and of course - model.

You can PM or ask here.

Scouts Out!

[Big Hext Finnigan]

Thank you for the reminder and the resources.

[Will Ketchum]

St. George.  Thanks for the offer.  I sent you an e-mail.

Will Ketchum

[Will Ketchum]

I picked up a Belgium copy of the British Bulldog in 38 S&W.  Neat little gun.   Should make a dandy and different pocket pistol.

Will Ketchum

[Will Ketchum]

After conferring with a father & son team of Smith & Wesson collectors we figure that the right grip is most likely a aftermarket replacement.  It is a 2nd model single action.  They offered me almost twice what I paid for it even after I told them what I had paid.

Will Ketchum

[Caucasian Wingnut]

Here is the picture of the S&W 38 hammerless "New Departure" model 4 that I just got, circa 1905

Or at least I hope that the picture shows up 

<img src=http://www.woodburyguild.com/mike/s&w38.jpg<br>

[Cuts Crooked]

The link didn't work     www.woodburyguild.com/mike/s&w38.jpg

[Caucasian Wingnut]

hope this works
Swamp Yankee

[Will Ketchum]

Nice looking gun

Will Ketchum

[Caucasian Wingnut]

Thanks Will

Swamp

[St. George]

Now - that's a nice Pocket Pistol.

An OCS classmate collects old S&W's and has the shorter-barrelled "Bicycle Pistol" - the one where the barrel is about even with the lower lug - nickelled and pearl and pretty.
I want it.

And he won't trade it to me...

Scouts Out!

[Caucasian Wingnut]

Howdy St G.

This is the S&W New Departure Model 4 that they call the Bicycle Pistol. It has the shortest barrel you can get, 2 inches. The next size up is the 3 ¼”. They only made a few 2” in the Model 4 and Model 5. The Blue Book does not try to give an accurate price, I guess that not that many come on the market.

I saw one (Model 5 circa 1939ish) on Gun Broker for around $900 and it looked like it was blue and not nickel. Plus mine has real S&W pearl grips

The barrel on mine could be better, about 80% but overall the entire piece is 90% or better. The problem with me is that I have long hands and I can’t really grip it well. It kind of floats around in my hand.

Swamp Yankee

[St. George]

My classmate's revolver has the 1 1/2" barrel - with the address on the sides, in .32S&W.
It's the rare one - though a 1" barrel has been reported.
I don't care - I still want it...

According to Supica - the .32's are the "Bicycle Guns", and they're double the standard value as a general rule.

Is your barrel serial numbered?
If so - then you've really got something.

The reason I ask is that there's a quote in his "Historic Notes":

"Any .38 DA with an original 2" barrel would be worth a substantial premium.  However, watch out for .38 DAs with 2" barrels from Safety .38s or Perfecteds.  These were usually spare factory barrels lacking a serial number".

As to shooting it - remember - these were designed to come out of a vest pocket as an emergency weapon.
They did that sort of thing well.
Shooting comfort didn't enter it to it.

I used to know a Narcotics officer that carried two of the short-barrelled S&W's - loaded with dead soft lead.
They didn't look like "issue" revolvers, they hid well, and they worked all of the time.

Scouts Out!

[Caucasian Wingnut]

Howdy St. G.


I have matching serial numbers on the frame (butt), on the cylinder face, on the barrel latch and on the barrel itself, right underneath the latch. Plus the barrel has *38 S&W CTG* on the left side and the address on the right side on the barrel. So it looks like this is the real McCoy.


I have seen the name “bicycle gun” used for the 32 and 38 S&W hammerless in several books. It may that authors are using it in a rather generic way for the 2” hammerless S&W.

Anyway it goes into the gun safe for the time being.

Thanks for all the help and info.

Swamp Yankee

[Will Ketchum]

Speaking of pocket pistols,  this past winter I picked up a nice Belgian copy of the British Bulldog in 38 S&W.  When reading the August issue of "Wild West" magazine I saw an article by George Layman regarding a Belgian Bulldog that he ownes that may have belonged to John Tunstall of Lincoln County NM fame.  When the author removed the cylinder he found the Belgian proof mark of the letters "ELG" in a oval on the flats between the chambers.  This was apparently the Liege Belgian proof mark between 1874 & 1898.  Out of curiosity I checked my cylinder and low and behold it has the same proof mark    Not really a big deal but I thought it was neat and worth mentioning.

Of all my pocket pistols including 3 S&Ws, one of which is a 2nd model single action, the buldog is the one that has caught my fancy and will probably be the one I keep

Will Ketchum